Better quality torque converter set up

[vpd66]

This might sound like more of a rant but why is it that there is such a large performance parts market for the honda clone engines yet we are stuck with a sub par torque converter set up (TAV 30)? I would have thought by now someone would have designed a better setup for these size engines? Even the 40 series TAV that fits the big block clone engines is not a very good set up. I think Comet who originally developed TAV 30 only rated it to 8 horsepower. I know you can remove the governor, better exhaust, better air filter and increase the jetting and be higher horsepower then the TAV 30 is rated for. So why are we stuck with un underrated torque converter setup???

 

[Hellion]

Are you speaking of Comet or Max-Torque branded torque converters or the Chinesium or what? In what areas are they lacking? “Not very good” is a bit vague. Honest rebuttal here.

Torque Converters (CVT’s) | Comet Clutches

Max-Torque Clutches

 

[JimD]

The answer is volume there just isn't any numbers that would justify laying out $60,000 for a die. Comet didn't have to up grade their t/c because there was no competition. We got back into a t/c only because Comet wasn't making deliveries in 1997. We then came in with a knock off of their series 20 but we improved on their failure points after collect returns from the kart manufacturers to review the failure points of the unit. We only thought it fair after they copied our clutch in 1983. As the old saying goes-- "what goes around comes around".

We went with a die cast versus a sand cast for much better tolerances and consistency. We made minor changes in how the spring went into the driven unit and added a hole for a little more adjustment., bigger ramps and other changes that were improvements.

But then the market disappeared in 2005 and the manufacturers ALL closed their doors. It was a repeat of what happen to mini-bikes --product liability cost was just too much. Too many lawyers and no common sense sums it up fairly quickly.

 

[vpd66]

Are you speaking of Comet or Max-Torque branded torque converters or the Chinesium or what? In what areas are they lacking? “Not very good” is a bit vague. Honest rebuttal here.

Torque Converters (CVT’s) | Comet Clutches

Max-Torque Clutches

The Comet TAV 30 series and its chinese clones. They lack in quality and are only rated for 8hp. With the amount of performance parts available for these engines and the ability to get them to make double digit horsepower and torque, there should be a higher quality and more tunable CVT system. Take a look at a Comet 102c or a Polaris CVT. They are much higher quality and very tunable.

 

[panchothedog]

The typical 30 series torque converter hasn't changed much for quite a while, but with the springs and weights available they seem quite tunable. I don't know anything about the Comet 120, but you certainly must be aware that many of the
Polaris vehicles sell for as much as a mid priced car, and buy the thousands. The time and engineering effort that they can afford is hardly comparable to the go kart industry ( if you can even call it an industry.) Also the 8 hp. limit is drastically
underated. I have multiple karts all with built engines. The least modified producing probably 11hp. and the most modified making 14 to 15 hp. For normal use the converters have held up well. My only gripe is not being able to run a 40 series on the 3/4" shaft small engines. Running the karts in soft beach like sand where paddle tires can really help the belts ( even the Comet belts ) have a very short life span. I think if it could adapt a 40, with its more robust belt it would possibly last considerably longer. The one kart that I own that runs a big block and a 40 series is the one I don't have paddle tires for.

 

[vpd66]

The typical 30 series torque converter hasn't changed much for quite a while, but with the springs and weights available they seem quite tunable. I don't know anything about the Comet 120, but you certainly must be aware that many of the
Polaris vehicles sell for as much as a mid priced car, and buy the thousands. The time and engineering effort that they can afford is hardly comparable to the go kart industry ( if you can even call it an industry.) Also the 8 hp. limit is drastically
underated. I have multiple karts all with built engines. The least modified producing probably 11hp. and the most modified making 14 to 15 hp. For normal use the converters have held up well. My only gripe is not being able to run a 40 series on the 3/4" shaft small engines. Running the karts in soft beach like sand where paddle tires can really help the belts ( even the Comet belts ) have a very short life span. I think if it could adapt a 40, with its more robust belt it would possibly last considerably longer. The one kart that I own that runs a big block and a 40 series is the one I don't have paddle tires for.

Sorry it's a Comet 102c not 120c. I edited my post. Your reply just went with what I'm talking about. The Comet TAV 30 I believe was invented in the early 1970s. That makes it over 50 years old. If you look at small engines back then the 5 hp Briggs flathead motor was king of the hill. It had very little performance parts available back then. Now compare the 5 hp Briggs to the Honda/Clone overhead valve engines and how much progress they have made and its time for a torque converter system to step up to the times. Looking a the Polaris and 102c you can see the engineering has already been done. I would think all that would be needed would be to downsize it. Polaris makes a p85 and a p90 model of there clutch. One is designed for a 1 3/8" belt and the other an 1 3/16" belt. If they would take it down one more scale size to use a 7/8" belt they would have it. These clutches are built much better than the TAV 30 style. They use machined cast aluminum parts vs stamped steel parts in the TAV 30. They are much more tunable with weight/ramps and different engagement springs. I guess my past snowmobile experience is coming out. LOL

 

[JimD]

The highly tunable t/c are out there and there are several manufacturers that can handle the horse power but they are NOT in the price range you want to pay. Speed cost money and because they are not large production runs like Comet and Max-Torque did (10,000 piece runs) they don't offer the lower prices volume can produce. Polar, Shockwave are just a few of the high end t/c that are out there but these systems cost 5 x more than your $99 engine you want to put them on with your $300 up grades. If there is no volume in it then you have some protection from china copying it because they will not make something that has a limited market.

The high cost t/c are not produced on a screw machine, they come off a very costly precision CNC and the material used is traceable so they know just what they are working with. It isn't melted down pop cans and old aluminum wheel rims. These are well designed and engineered American made products and they are expensive, they will never be cheap because the volume isn't there.

 

[vpd66]

The highly tunable t/c are out there and there are several manufacturers that can handle the horse power but they are NOT in the price range you want to pay. Speed cost money and because they are not large production runs like Comet and Max-Torque did (10,000 piece runs) they don't offer the lower prices volume can produce. Polar, Shockwave are just a few of the high end t/c that are out there but these systems cost 5 x more than your $99 engine you want to put them on with your $300 up grades. If there is no volume in it then you have some protection from china copying it because they will not make something that has a limited market.

The high cost t/c are not produced on a screw machine, they come off a very costly precision CNC and the material use is traceable so they know just what they are working with. It isn't melted down pop cans and old aluminum wheel rims. These are well designed and engineered American made products and they are expensive, they will never be cheap because the volume isn't there.

I totally understand what you're saying and I'm aware of the high end Jr Dragster clutch setups (AKA Polar,shockwave). I guess my rant (remember I said this is more of a rant) is that there is quite a market for people building these engines and a lot of them are spending a lot more then $300 on them. You would think there would be a better quality setup then the TAV 30 but not has expensive has the Polar/Shockwave setups. I would think if someone could do it and bring it to market in the $600-$700 range it would sell. I see plenty of guys doing amateur/backstreet minibike drag racing and spending in the $2000 range on there engines alone. Then eating a belt up every run they make. Not trying to argue you just ranting! LOL

 

[Edwin Spangler]

The answer is volume there just isn't any numbers that would justify laying out $60,000 for a die. Comet didn't have to up grade their t/c because there was no competition. We got back into a t/c only because Comet wasn't making deliveries in 1997. We then came in with a knock off of their series 20 but we improved on their failure points after collect returns from the kart manufacturers to review the failure points of the unit. We only thought it fair after they copied our clutch in 1983. As the old saying goes-- "what goes around comes around".

We went with a die cast versus a sand cast for much better tolerances and consistency. We made minor changes in how the spring went into the driven unit and added a hole for a little more adjustment., bigger ramps and other changes that were improvements.

But then the market disappeared in 2005 and the manufacturers ALL closed their doors. It was a repeat of what happen to mini-bikes --product liability cost was just too much. Too many lawyers and no common sense sums it up fairly quickly.

Hey thanks for the history lesson!