40mph+ ct200uex parts list?

[bbrewer2005]

So I just bought a bone stock, practically new Coleman ct200u-ex, and am getting absolutely left in the dust by my buddies Baja warrior. All he has done to it is a torque converter and a stock, still governed predator 212. Do those two mods alone really get 40+? He doeant know much about the converter and won't take the gaurds off to count the teeth on the sprockets. My bike with governor screw out does 25, which isn't cutting it. His did 41mph with me on it.

When we race, I get about a bike length on him until I hit my top speed of 25, then he just goes by me like I'm sitting still.

As that all I need is a converter? Lol

 

[bob58o]

Tell us the tire size and the number of teeth on your rear sprocket.
I don't feel like looking stuff up tonight.

Then I can tell you how to go about getting 45mph.

---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------

19" Tires means 4.97' per revolution.
In order to travel at 45mph, you need to travel 237,600 feet per hour
Which is 3,960 feet per minute.
Which is 797 rear tire revolutions per minute.

3600 RPM with a 4.5 :1 gear ratio is 45mph.
5200 RPM with a 6.5 :1 gear ratio is 45mph.

If you keep the 50T on the rear and get a 30 series TC with 6" driven unit and put an 8T on the jackshaft....
5.625 :1 in high gear.

36 mph at 3600 RPM.
45 mph at 4500 RPM.
52 mph at 5200 RPM.

If you keep the 50T on the rear and get a 30 series TC with 6" driven unit and put a 10T on the jackshaft....
4.5 :1 in high gear.

45 mph at 3600 RPM.

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------

So first just get a 30 series TC off eBay for $53. It comes with a 10T sprocket.
Then (if not satisfied) remove the governor, governor.
Then if not satisfied you can upgrade to a 212 if you like.

If you are ok with removing the governor, then we can gear your 196cc engine to beat his 212cc.

 

[bbrewer2005]

Yep 50t drive Sprocket, 19in tires. I'll order the 30 series converter tomorrow. I planned on removing the governor. Don't I need upgraded valve springs to run higher than what the governor allows? What is max rpm with a governor installed? I currently have the screw on the governor arm removed. Went from 18mph to 25mph by removing that screw.
Thanks!

---------- Post added at 02:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 AM ----------

To add to my previous post, I do plan on taking this off roading, and it won't be a drag bike, but it would be nice to have the bragging rights. But most of all, to keep up. My goal is 50mph top speed, while still being able to pull hills. Is this doable with a stage one kit (plus 18/22lb valve springs) and TC?

 

[bob58o]

We generally tell people to not upgrade the valve springs unless they get at least a billet connecting rod. Stock valve springs will float somewhere around 5-5.5k RPM (from what I've read). This acts like a rev limiter. This is a "somewhat safe" RPM for stock parts.

Once you upgrade the valve springs, the engine can rev to higher RPMs where stock parts are more likely to fail. A broken rod will usually put a hole in the block. A magnet tossed from a stock flywheel will usually take off the ignition coil and the coil's mounting bosses at a minimum.

You can probably adjust the governor to allow around 5k RPM. You need to adjust the spring connected to the governor arm. I think there is a thread on here where somebody adjusted and the governor springs and then tested the engine for a while.

50mph might be doable with the stage one kit, no governor, and a TC (with stock valve springs).

If it were me, I'd get an 8T sprocket for the TC (instead of the 10T that comes with it). Geared 50 :8 is 6.25 :1. With 0.90 :1 overdrive (from the TC)... 5.625 :1 Gear ratio.

3600 RPM = 36 MPH
5000 RPM = 50 MPH

If you aren't happy after that, then you look into other performance modifications like a camshaft. Anything after a stage 1 kit will require a billet connecting rod at a minimum.

If you plan on doing further modifications, then I wouldn't get a stage one kit. I like to replace the stock carbs with something less lawnmower -y. For around $100 (more or less), you can get an exhaust, a 24mm slide style carb, a carb adapter, an air filter, 4 - 8 degree offset timing key.

https://www.gopowersports.com/coleman-ct200u-header-pipe/
https://www.gopowersports.com/manifold-for-6-5hp-clones-predators
https://www.ebay.com/i/323213694731?chn=ps
https://www.gopowersports.com/advance-timing-offset-key

You'd need to figure out a throttle cable that works with your grips and the carb.

 

[bbrewer2005]

Thanks, that's some great info. I will eventually do the billet rod, and flywheel, as well as a cam down the road. My actual race car is soaking up most of my funds right now.
Is that slide shaft carb a mikuni clone? I see guys running mikuni carbs on YouTube.

I already ordered a tav2-30 clone from eBay this morning with the 10t jackshaft gear. Ill see how it does with that first.

I'd still like to crank the rpms up a bit. My friend is awful cocky and thinks I still won't beat him, so every little bit helps(hahaha). I'm assuming that an intact factory governor with the stop screw out is 3600rpm correct?

Thanks again!

 

[bob58o]

It seems as though backing out the throttle stop screw does indeed raise the governed speed of the engine. Maybe 3900?

Then remove the larger of the two springs from the governor arm and try to reattach in a hole that is further away. There are 5 holes in the governor arm on a Predator. You might have to drill the extra holes yourself on a clone. Play around putting the spring in different holes in different locations and see if you rev higher or lower. More stretch from the spring at WOT will mean more RPMs. A small hole about 1/4” further away than the stock hole should do it.

You could probably also just bend the stock spring 1/4” shorter and keep it in the same hole.
Just make sure you don’t go too short where the governor arm is being pulled open when throttle arm is closed.

When ever making throttle linkage adjustments, take precaution in case the bike wants to run away on its own. Start it with the back tire off the ground or with the front up against something solid.

The arm below I call the governor arm.
The other one, I call the throttle arm.

 

[Jim289]

Thanks, that's some great info. I will eventually do the billet rod, and flywheel, as well as a cam down the road. My actual race car is soaking up most of my funds right now.
Is that slide shaft carb a mikuni clone? I see guys running mikuni carbs on YouTube.

I already ordered a tav2-30 clone from eBay this morning with the 10t jackshaft gear. Ill see how it does with that first.

I'd still like to crank the rpms up a bit. My friend is awful cocky and thinks I still won't beat him, so every little bit helps(hahaha). I'm assuming that an intact factory governor with the stop screw out is 3600rpm correct?

Thanks again!

What are you doing to get the TAV to work on your Hisun engine that has the 16mm crankshaft output? eBay TAV's are for engines with 3/4in outputs.

And you should know that people are getting 38-42 mph governed on those Colemans with a TAV. And you don't really need to remove the governor to equal or beat his 212 if you get a TAV. That can be done with gearing like bob58o said.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I'd say get a TAV and raise the governor to about 4000rpm. That should get you a lot more top end without being much risk to the engine. The TAV with a 6" driven unit makes about 3:1 reduction down low and increases that to 0.9 overdrive up top.

If the output shaft is 16mm, then that's very close to 5/8" (0.630" vs 0.625). It might be possible to get an adapter sleeve and key so a 3/4" clutch/TC will fit. I know I've seen them before.

 

[bbrewer2005]

Thanks again bob58o. Ill give that a shot.

As for the 16mm crank snout, I didnt know that. I assumed it was a 3/4in. That really sucks. I may just go and get a predator 212. Are those sleeves easy to make? They seem to be 15 bucks on ebay. wonder if I can find some pipe with an ID of 5/8 and an OD of 3/4 and just port the inside of it a bit. I can get those keys from work for free.

 

[bob58o]

I didn't know you had a 16mm crankshaft either. Sorry, I would have given you a heads up.
You may be able to get a different crankshaft.

For $30, you may be able to replace the crankshaft with one that has a 3/4" PTO.
https://www.amazon.com/HONDA-GX200-CRANKSHAFT-6-5HP-ENGINE/dp/B00FOUNMRE

You may want to call ARC and ask them if the honda crank is a direct swap. They are usually very helpful.

 

[bbrewer2005]

I'm extremely impatient, so I went and got a 212 hemi predator. Lol Im in the middle of assembling it all now. Im putting all the top components (tank and carb topper, pull atart) from the 196 hisun onto the 212 and not telling any of my buddies. Hahaha.

 

[Jim289]

Oh no!!! Oh well.

I would have swapped out the crank and while it was apart it would have got a CL1 cam. That plus the TAV, proper jetting, and an 8 or 9 gear and you would beat your friends 212.

So many good engines swapped out for the Predator....Sad. Very common for the Colemans.

And yes the GX200 is a direct swap in for 196 clones. NR racing has one for 29.99. That Amazon price for the Honda crank is super cheap.

 

[bob58o]

I'm extremely impatient, so I went and got a 212 hemi predator. Lol Im in the middle of assembling it all now. Im putting all the top components (tank and carb topper, pull atart) from the 196 hisun onto the 212 and not telling any of my buddies. Hahaha.

The carb on the predator may be better than the honda clone. I think it may have a slightly larger bore, but by no means sure about that.

The gas tank will only fit if you got a hemi predator, IIRC. I never had a non-hemi but I think the gas tank mounting is different.

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

The bolts you need to install the TC are 5/16" - 24 TPI. Don't try to use the ones that come with the kit on the Predator engine. I think they send metric bolts (or are they screws? LOL) which don't fit the predator.

 

[bbrewer2005]

I got the hemi version. I'm going to eventually build it, but the 100 I just spend on the engine was to upgrade the other one. Oh well. I'm aware of the ptv clearance with these. My other buddy has the same engine with a billet rod, mod2 cam, gov delete, and 22lb springs with a .010 head gasket, rejetted stock carb, coupled to a tav2 on his baja. He broke it in but hasn't ridden it much yet.

I got mine all together and it did 44mph on flat ground. I got my cocky buddy covered. Haha His does 39 with him on it, and 43 with me on it (he's a heavier guy. I'm about 210).

Thank you guys for all your help! Ill be back when i go to upgrade the internals. I think my next mod will be some sort of mikuni. Im going after my buddy with the built one next.

 

[bbrewer2005]

Ive still got to swap pull starters, and ziptie the cables to the frame, as well as mount the throttle cable to the pull start. Other than that, it's done.

 

[bob58o]

This might be a simple option for your next mod. I've never used this carb, but maybe others can chime in.

https://www.gopowersports.com/22mm-mikuni-carburetor-performance-kit/

Or I could help you put together an even cheaper kit piece by piece.

 

[bbrewer2005]

What about the $15 knockoff mikuni? Someone linked one in this post.

 

[bob58o]

https://www.ebay.com/i/323213694731?chn=ps&rmvSB=true

^ guy?
They are usually $22-$25 shipped.

This is what I meant by a cheaper kit piece by piece.
It is a Keihin PWK knock off. A little different than the Mikuni 22mm that many use.

The manifold it uses is around $22 shipped from GoPowerSports.com. when using coupon code DIYGOKARTS
https://www.gopowersports.com/manifold-for-6-5hp-clones-predators

A very cheap (and not great quality) air filter can be found for $3.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/48mm-Motor...226285&hash=item25f19c07a9:g:CfAAAOSwqGlauhi-

12 piece (don't get the 10 piece) Pilot Jet Kit for $7
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12pcs-Slow...-32-35-38-40-42-45-48-50-55-USA-/182464762910

10 piece main jet kit for $4 (might want to make sure the carb uses this style jets) I ordered a 24mm and it used these jets, But with these China clones, who knows for sure.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Set-10-Main-...m=123041844097&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Carb 26.50
Manifold 21.50
Filter 3.00
Pilot Jets 7.00
Main Jets 4.50
____________________
$62.50

I won't link a throttle cable because I usually have to modify one to work for me.
Either the cable housing is too long, or it doesn't have the right end for a slide carb, or the other end doesn't screw into the twist grip, or it does screw in and my twist grip doesn't have threads....
People say a bicycle shop can make you a custom cable, but I get along with my diy stuff.

So don't be fooled by the 13.00 price tag on the carb. It will cost more than that to upgrade. The jets may not be needed but they are cheap and available if you need them. The carb comes with a few extra (probably not labeled) jets. The description says the sizes of jets that are supposed to be included.

 

[Smokeeater]

Question: did you have to raise the motor so the TC would fit??

---------- Post added at 08:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

Hello all, for those that have installed the Tav2 kit, do you have to raise the motor in order to install?

CT200U

 

[bob58o]

I've had to lift the engine on both the minibikes I have done with 212's and a 30 series TC with backplate.