212cc Tillotson

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Kozi

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Anyone familiar with these engines? Look like they make 10hp out of the box. Can’t seem to find a lot of info on them. Any idea what they rev to? Considering this engine for a 2 seat Manco I just picked up. Wanted the keep the engine mostly stiock just to ride around with my son. Don’t want to put something with a loud exhaust etc on it just bolt on and go. Kart currently has a 5hp tecushmi.

For approx $80 more than a predator and makes 3.5 more hp seems like a good deal?

Thoughts?
 

mckutzy

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Howabout a link or a pic at least...
Is a 212 motor with a till carb or something different????
 

Kozi

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Howabout a link or a pic at least...
Is a 212 motor with a till carb or something different????


---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------

Our TPP-212E is a high performance, EPA certified general purpose engine suitable for either unsanctioned powersports or, with the addition of an enhanced racing flywheel, competition racing. The TPP-212H features a hemi head and can be upgraded at your local dealer with our PK-1A carburetor or TF-8A TillotsonTCT fuel system for unparalleled acceleration from idle through wide open throttle in sanctioned racing.

Features Include:

Hemi Head
Cast Iron Cylinder
Diecast flywheel
Easy Pull Start
Enhanced valve springs
EPA Certified in standard configuration
Available with PK-1A or TillotsonTCT technology for open class racing
1 Year Warranty for non-racing applications

---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------

 

itsid

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hmm.. it's a Ducar 212 with the Tillotson TCT carb...

IDK if it's not cheaper to just buy a Ducar 212 (or a predator for that matter) and a TCT carb seperately...

your choice.. personally I'd shoot for the true clone anyways ;)

'sid
 

bob58o

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Flywheel rated to 10,000 RPM.
Not sure which flywheel they use, but the cheap PVL flywheel is like $65.

The carb upgrade is optional. $40 extra for the Tillotson carb that gives the engine its name?????
How can you call it a Tillotson, then offer the Tillotson carb as an option???

Not sure what CC the "high compression" head is. They are vague. Probably 18cc?
The exhaust valve is smaller than a Predator, but intake valve is bigger than a clone.

Side note: When ever I run 27mm / 25mm valves (stock Predator size valves) in the engine simulator I have, it always tells me my exhaust flow / intake flow ratio is too high. Not sure what that means, but I bet the simulator would be happier with 27/24mm valves. Personally I'd rather go the other way and increase the intake valve size to reduce the ex flow/in flow ratio (assuming the cam and carb used are matched for those valves).

With a stock camshaft and upgraded springs (come with the engine) you can probably turn around 6k RPM or a bit more (assuming you are geared to do so).

My biggest concern would be the stock connecting rod coming apart. I didn't see anything about an upgraded rod.

Predator 212 is $110.
Valve Springs are under $10.
Flywheel is $65. (Probably more if starting with a Predator).

So the price is reasonable if shipping isn't too much (EDIT FREE SHIPPING!!!). I'm just not sure about the head they use. Not familiar with a 27/24mm high compression head.


But if you want the carb it will be around $215 after tax, not $180. $4 off using coupon code. Discount on the carb, not the engine.

If it makes 3.5HP more than a stock motor, the gains are due mainly to the increased RPM allowed from governor removal and heavier valve springs.
 

bob58o

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If a 212 makes 8.1 Lb Ft PEAK Torque, I'm not sure where they get the 6.5 HP from.

To get 6.5HP, you need to make 8.1 Lb Ft at 4,200 RPM.
Problem is that the specs say Peak Tq is 8.1 Lb Ft at 2500 RPM and the engine is governed to under 4k RPM.

To get 6.5 HP at 3600 RPM, you need 9.5 Lb Ft, but how do you have 9.5 Lb Ft at 3600 RPM when TQ is falling as you increase RPMs past the peak, which was 8.1 at 2500 RPM.

If the engine in question makes 10 HP at 6500 RPM, then the engine would be making 8.1 Lb Ft at 6500 RPM.

In summary, I don't know how these engines get their power ratings and wouldn't pay too much attention to HP ratings. I'd rather see the full specs / list of modifications and compare to a stock 196cc or 212cc
 

bob58o

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Found this

Well thats says 8HP not 10HP. Also makes around 7HP at 3600 RPM.
Also my understanding is that every dyno has a user inputted coefficient. A bigger coefficient means higher numbers. Two dynos with two different coefficients will read two different things. Not sure if there is a way to calibrate and standardize dynos, but I often hear how dynos are only good for comparative analysis (for that reason). But I dunno. I can't afford one nor do I have a spot for it.
 

mckutzy

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Its an interesting head design as it has a stamped valve cover like a regular clone, but claims a "HEMI" head profile with out the typical cast valve cover???
 

bob58o

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Its an interesting head design as it has a stamped valve cover like a regular clone, but claims a "HEMI" head profile with out the typical cast valve cover???

What kind of head does the Powerfist 208cc have. For some reason I thought these were closely related to the 208cc engines. Perhaps the wrist pin size doesn't match the clone or the Predator? I'm just shooting blindly here. I know little about these or the 208cc engines.
 

mckutzy

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As I understand the Princess's- Power fist 208cc are a standard head profile.. and having a typical steel valve cover... at least accordingly to the one on my other bike.
Internally I haven't much of a clue... more or less I haven't found any side-cover gaskets replacements to attempt any internal investigation, or I would have at least given a sitrep on the sizes of these motors...
 

Cbreiter

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I believe the powerfist are just a regular head, they’re different than the hemi head found on the 212 predator. I’m not sure on the heads on the “pro-point” versions, which apparently have a cast iron sleeve, and are more $.
Side cover gaskets cab be found easy on eBay, I bought a whole rebuild kit for $25. That or you can trace it out on a cornflakes box, and cut a new one, just put a bit of sealant on both sides. Have done that lots, pretty much free especially if you use gasket sealant in your shop already.


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65ShelbyClone

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The TCT "carb" marketing literature reeks of marketing BS and IMO, a lot of it is garbage.

A form of mechanical fuel injection.

The stuff from 60+ years ago that auto manufacturers abandoned by the 1970s?

With the TillotsonTCT technology, we are able to map performance directly to the engine, increasing and decreasing the fuel/air mixture at each load point to provide the engine with optimum performance with the lowest possible emissions.

Much like a carb?

With the TillotsonTCT technology, we can add or subtract the fuel supply wherever and whenever desired in the acceleration curve.

Right, like a carb.

We can also provide more fuel at idle and less fuel at WOT to make starting easier and increasing power while still lowering overall emissions.

Exactly like a carb. Gosh, it's like carburetors haven't existed for the last 100+ years.

All I can decipher is that maybe the TCT lowers emissions due to leaner AFRs which is perhaps facilitated by finer vaporizing of the fuel.
 

itsid

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unfortunately I still cannot find the patent nor an exploded view.
Tried to find it when bob mentioned it a while back for the first time.

but from what I've understand so far it's basically a self-adjusting carb.

It not only takes the throttle position as an input value, but likely some form of pressure difference (vacuum created by the intake?)
If it adjusts butterfly position to accomodate,
and/or if there's secondary needle jet that's been controlled IDK

a secondary jet appears to be closer to their fuel injection claim,
since that's what it'd do really inject fuel into the carb's air stream (trottle body), right?

Again, w/o the paperwork (patents or at least an exploded view) I can't tell for sure

Their comparision tables clearly show a more stable rpm under load
unfortunately not with otherwise identical engines, but only with allegedly similar ones.
which kinda bothers me really.
I mean how hard is it to buy two Honda GX200s from a single mfg batch?
or two Lifans for that matter?

Anyways.. I wouldn't call it marketing BS just yet.
Tillotson is known for excellent carbs and produces carburetors for over a century now..
sooo I'd love to think it's indeed some validity in their claims.

Yes, it's still "just a carburetor",
I still can't see how they could pressurize a fuel line for proper needle jet injection.
but just because _I_ don't know doesn't mean THEY don't know!

And again, mechanical fuel injections have been abandoned because they're too expensive to make compared how cheap an electronic fuel injection is,
not because they don't work!

and EFI needs
$1 a throttle body (straight tube, butterfly and a hole)
$5 an injection head (solenoid actuated needle jet)
$10 a microprocessor to read various sensors (air, throttle pos, temp)
$30 for various electronic sensors (two temperature sensors, throttle position, air pressure)

A mechanical injection needs a
$30 throttle body with all the levers and springs cams and stuff to not only control the
$4 injector (lever actuated needle jet) but to do so according to the signals of
$100 mechanical sensors
I agree that some mechanical sensors are cheaper than electronic ones.. BUT
you need a volumetric air sensor, which the EFI doesn't need it can just calculate air volume by density [temp], pressure and time.. mechanically that's a whole different story.

Think about it as a watch.. mechanical watches vs electronic ones...
same idea of complexity really...
And while electronic ones usually are better time keepers, mechanical ones are the ones
that cost money if you buy them.. ignore the name brands..
buy a quality watch movement a good quarz movement costs 30 bucks 50 if you want to go fancy..
a good mechanical movement from the same mfg in it's simplest form 80, 300 if you want to go halfway fancy
dozens of additional parts.

So yeah if Tillotson added a dumbed down mechanical injection system into the carb body,
that IS a noteworthy invention.
Even if it's not as precise and efficient as an EFI would be...

Let's not compare TCTs to EFIs,
let's compare the 30 dollar TCT carb to a regular carb (tillotson or other)
can it beat a 16 dollar chinese?
can it beat a 25 dollar Tillotson?
can it beat a 60 dollar keihin?
can it beat a 90 dollar mikuni?

And THAT is what should matter..

'sid
 
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