212cc and 420cc exhaust with O2 sensor bungs for tuning.

[Denny]

I would just go and get a Autometer AFR gauge if I was that concerned. Running the engine on jackstands will tell you nothing about your mixture under load. With a AFR gauge you will be able to see in real world time what is going on as you are driving, much more helpful.



Denny

 

[chancer]

Or just get really long leads for the meter and tape it to the dash.???

 

[Jrgunn5150]

To answer the original question, no.

I am not interested.

I will elaborate, it's a narrow band, it's worthless essentially. If I cared that much to want AFR, I would want the actual hard number, not a WAG rich/lean.

 

[Jfive]

To answer the original question, no.

I am not interested.

I will elaborate, it's a narrow band, it's worthless essentially. If I cared that much to want AFR, I would want the actual hard number, not a WAG rich/lean.

Not worthless for n/a but yes to boosted engines where you go from 15 to 11.5. But I'm just asking. No biggie. Wideband can be used too I'm just making a header and showing a cheap way to accurately see what you have, using a 180.00 wide band would be up to the person. Guys that build these for racing do it cause they wanna have it as close to perfect as possible.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Not worthless for n/a but yes to boosted engines where you go from 15 to 11.5. But I'm just asking. No biggie. Wideband can be used too I'm just making a header and showing a cheap way to accurately see what you have, using a 180.00 wide band would be up to the person. Guys that build these for racing do it cause they wanna have it as close to perfect as possible.

It's just my opinion on the matter, it's worth what you pay for it

I, personally, will either do nothing, because it's a 100 dollar engine on a go kart that I see as disposable. Or, I will GAB because that's how I roll lol.

For 99% of Go kart people, 99% of the time, simply following the jetting rule of thumb already established will work just peachy with their basic stage one clones.

Now, you may have more luck on the more racing oriented forums, but for the DIY crowd, I can't see the value.

 

[Iron John]

For 1000's of years people thought the world was flat.
For one week, I thought I was going to run my 420 stock.
For two days, I thought I had a date with Missy.

Just saying...

Just saying what? That you are unable or unwilling to read your plugs? That your clone motor is so cutting edge that you need to throw instrumentation at it?

Occam's Razor. You can pull, read, and replace the plug in under a minute. No bungs (or bongs) needed.

Just sayin'.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Just saying what? That you are unable or unwilling to read your plugs? That your clone motor is so cutting edge that you need to throw instrumentation at it?

Occam's Razor. You can pull, read, and replace the plug in under a minute. No bungs (or bongs) needed.

Just sayin'.

His would benefit from a wideband, I can concede that. He is well beyond bolt on's.

But lot's of people still think the earth is flat lol,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3guUI8eP4o

 

[Tangiblestar]

Jfive I think you shined light on a problem that isn't just here, it's in lots of motorsport. Especially ones where we are trying to do things on the cheap. Innovation is not encouraged. Try reading up on forced induction here, or nitrous, or just about anything other than billet parts and a removed governor. You'll find tons of "can't be done" and just as much "if it was a good idea someone else would have done it". I keep seeing people say "read plugs" which is about as prehistoric as you can get with tuning, and most folks don't even do it right(since the part that needs to be read is the ceramic UNDER the metal).
The folks who would actually benefit from your product are those who would like to actually push the envelope instead of following the crowd. Unfortunately they are few and far between. I really doubt you could recoup all of your investment without spending at least a little time marketing it by showing how valuable a tool it can be.
I really hope you do it anyway. Build a pretty one, and I'll be your first customer.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

I beleive your take on thing's is inaccurate Tangiblestar.

I've seen no one say it can't be done or is a bad idea, same with forced induction and nitrous.

There's a difference between what can be done and what's a good bang for the buck. Most of us are riding around our backyards, not racing for thousands of dollar's. Having a narrow band O2 sensor to show the benefit of a 35 jet over a 36 jet today, isn't going to make a lick of difference to anyone.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with reading plugs, it's the single most definitive way to know what your engine is doing. I use a 8 dollar mediscope from my GF's nurse bag to read mine, in my 11 second racecar, and on my go kart when I still had it. It's simple, it's effective, and it flat works.

There's a reason there's an accepted way of doing thing's. There's a reason people aren't out there swapping VW Sirocco engine's into Mustangs, or 4.6 Ford engine's into anything. At the end of the day, it simply isn't worth it. You can billet rod, forced induct your 212 for 800 dollar's, or buy a 200 420, pull the governor, and walk all over the 212. "Being different", is what get's animals killed in the wild, it's what bring's the wrath of Darwin right down on your non-conforming head.

99% of go-karter's, 99% of the time, will see absolutely no benefit from jimmy-rigging a DMM into their exhaust. My race car, doesn't have a wideband in it, and it's been running the same engine combo for three years now. And it's supercharged...

But like I always say, you can always prove me wrong, I welcome it.

 

[Poboy kartman]

Agreed. 100%....Sometimes the "dinosaurs" are the ones too inexperienced or hardheaded to realize that the voice of reason and experience isn't "stifling innovation "....just offering sound advice.....

But just to drive the point home.....we can see right off: "innovative square wheels " are a bad idea without trying them.

 

[Tangiblestar]

Reading plugs tells you very, very little. It isn't going to tell you AFR or EGT at different throttle angles without lots of testing. Even then it's not exactly hard data, just a vague indicator of range.
Running a boosted drag car without wideband is one thing, tuning that car well enough to also perform well on the street in traffic is a bit different. It's also one thing to be tuned "good enough to not blow up" and an entirely different thing to be tuned perfectly. I've watched people pick up more than 15% on a good tune alone, no hard parts.
Narrowband O2 sensors are essentially useless for true tuning I totally agree with that. Great for spotting a catalyst that isn't efficient but not much else.
I wasn't suggesting anything as histrionic as square wheels, just being able to gather real data. After searching "turbo predator" and "nitrous predator" then reading everything on this forum, I formed my opinion on the rhetoric of the dinosaurs. Lots of discouragement, lots of misinformation and tons of parroting.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

But that's the point, I don't need to know AFR or EGT at any throttle angle, in my race car or in my go kart lol.

As for nitrous and turbo's, again, I see no reason it couldn't be made to work. I also see no reason i can't just go buy another 420cc engine for 1/3 the price and walk a 212. If I could buy a 600+ inch mountain motor for less than the price of my silly 302, I would do it in a heartbeat.

BTW, my car works on the street in traffic just peachy. I've run it in Drag Week twice lol, pulling a Uhual trailer no less. It was tuned on the dyno, and now it just runs. I don't need ongoing information. I don't need any information my plug's can't give me as a matter of fact. The next motor might have a wideband, they are cheap now, but for now it's fine.

You will never convince me that the average person screwing around with a go kart will benefit in any real way from a O2 sensor on their go kart, or lawn mower, or pressure washer. It's a go kart, not a Saturn V. Put gas in it, run it, look at the plug, change to the other jet if need be, put oil in it sometimes, have fun. No need to make something so easy so complex.

 

[Jfive]

To a person removing a governor and adding an air filter and exhaust to a 100.00, my topic is maybe pointless. To those trying to ad a gx390 carb to an engine half its size add cams and hundreds of other dollar at parts to get a 6.5 hp engine to 12 or 15 hp buying multiple plugs to guess at what there engine is doing, to me is funny.

Or better yet taking a 165.00 to 320.00 dollar engine and trying to get it to 20 or more hp. I'm not telling anyone to buy or not to buy anything. I'm gonna make a few setups for myself, and I'd be willing to make a few more if when I'm done others think it might be worth it to them(not all).

The methanol guys have to use something to tune there motors. To. Much risk to not. So far I'm waiting on a gauge sensor and myself to finish one more flange and then stop off at the bolt store for two nuts. Found that the 1" conduit is a perfect match for the 420powerland exhaust and the same for 3/4" for the hemi 212. Haven't removed the exhaust from my 196cc lifan yet.

If I can hook up and compare my narrow band and widebands to see how they fair, I will. It's gonna be another week or two for sure. Might try a heated 02 as well if the one wire is too slow. I'm no tuning God, just well informed on changing my ways to new methods is all.

I was reading earlier on people having tuning woes with changing things on these engines and not knowing what's going on. I hope to not have that issue with what I'm gonna do. I'd like to try a different approach to an important part of getting the most out of your 100.00 to 3500.00 dollar engine. 12:1 to 13.5:1 under load is where your most hp in n/a engines will be.

Thanks for the support and criticism as I'm only trying to explore options. Waiting to post a few pictures till I have a bender too.

 

[Tangiblestar]

The difference between 650hp and 715hp can all come down to tuning correctly. Moving the decimal a few spots makes it relevant to karts. We have a few 700+hp 2 liter cars here that get driven to work 6 days a week. There isn't a good reason to not apply those principals on small engines. Having good diagnostics is a step in the right direction.
If you don't want actual data, cool, not for you.
I'll continue data logging for efficiency and supporting small shops, especially one person ventures.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

I like math, taking your figures at face value, (although we tune for the track, as they say, you can't race a dyno).

A 65hp difference, which seems like a lot, when talking about numbers that large, is 9.5%. So, "moving the decimal a few places to the right", it's still 9.5%, nifty.

9.5% of say, 9 hp is, .855. Is that worth hooking up a bunch of wires, and swapping pipes back and forth, when you only have two jet sizes available to you anyway? I'll leave the .855 hp, go drive my kart, and never miss it while you're trying to hit the perfect ratio. And what is the perfect ratio anyway?

So, again, I've never disputed that it works. I merely state that for 99% of people tearing up a field in a refurbished go kart 99% of the time, it's not worth it. There is no bang for the buck for the dad trying to have fun with his kids, for the kid learning about engines. It's needlessly complicated and an unnecessary expense.

As an engineer, one of our guiding principals is KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. We spend eleventy billion dollars on a pressurized zero-g space pen, Russians use a pencil.

Information without context is worthless, and a narrow band provides just that, Stoich, will almost always have you running lean anyway. I would rather drive my go kart than spend all day drilling jets to get it perfect

 

[Iron John]

Reading plugs tells you very, very little. It isn't going to tell you AFR or EGT at different throttle angles without lots of testing. Even then it's not exactly hard data, just a vague indicator of range.
Running a boosted drag car without wideband is one thing, tuning that car well enough to also perform well on the street in traffic is a bit different. It's also one thing to be tuned "good enough to not blow up" and an entirely different thing to be tuned perfectly. I've watched people pick up more than 15% on a good tune alone, no hard parts.
Narrowband O2 sensors are essentially useless for true tuning I totally agree with that. Great for spotting a catalyst that isn't efficient but not much else.
I wasn't suggesting anything as histrionic as square wheels, just being able to gather real data. After searching "turbo predator" and "nitrous predator" then reading everything on this forum, I formed my opinion on the rhetoric of the dinosaurs. Lots of discouragement, lots of misinformation and tons of parroting.

I wonder if any engines actually ran and were tuned for peak performance prior to the development of O2 sensors. It must have been awful for those olden race drivers and fighter pilots.

 

[Jfive]

Just out of curiosity, when you mess around with timing on an engine, what are you doing? This is for the spark plug readers. Now don't hit the Google button too quick, just give it your best guess.

 

[bob58o]

9.5% of say, 9 hp is, .855. Is that worth hooking up a bunch of wires, and swapping pipes back and forth.

Come on! You know it! It's very GAB.

 

[chancer]

I am neither of the above mentioned type guys,( just a dad) but want to give this my best guess:
You change at what time during the "compression" stroke that the Soark plug actually sparks.
So it ignites the fuel at different phases of compression, Giving more or less or just right power.

I do not know which is better an early spark or a later spark. Hek I do not even know if ^ that is correct!

 

[bob58o]

Around Same increase you get from bumping the compression from 8.5 to 10.5.
It all adds up.

---------- Post added 07-16-2016 at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-15-2016 at 11:58 PM ----------

I already googled when Hillbilly told me to.
I just know the annealing should stop about midway through the bend on the ground strap.

---------- Post added at 12:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

I read the question better.
You are timing peak chamber pressure to coincide with optimized piston/connecting rod angle to get max force rotating the crank shaft at a certain rpm.