I got a 212 build I want to do, but would like to hear some seasoned veteran's advice since I don't have as much experience as you do

[butterbagz]

I want to make a 212 overhaul build.
nr racing 28/25 Hemi head ported polished and milled 65 thousandths
stainless valves and 48 lb dual springs
28mm nibbi racing carb
rpq 320 Hemi cam
10 thousandths head gasket
60mm stroker crank so I don't have to buy a wiseco piston
flat top piston with valve reliefs

• .050" deep valve reliefs

arc billet rod
slipstream billet flywheel
and a 3 stage header

I know it the piston will need shaved off a bit, and I need guidance on the clearance issues I may encounter.
I know it needs vented
What clutch would you suggest for this
Thanks for your advice in advance.

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

What's the end goal?

 

[butterbagz]

My end goal is to have a mean fun racing machine without having to bore out the block.

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

What kart?
What kind of terrain?
Drag strip? Dirt track?
Back roads? Mountain trails? Parking lots?

You can throw all the fancy parts but reliability comes into play.
The faster you go, the shorter engine life.

 

[butterbagz]

Custom racing kart shopping cart build. dirt tracks and dirt roads treaded racing slicks 3.5 to 1 gear ratio If you think that's viable still . Might see what pvc sleeves for the rear tires do. also got a question about ratio rockers would I need them for this build or no? Im just a little scared about coil bind so that's why Im asking.

• SS Lightweight 28mm Intake Valve +.200 Longer than Stock
• SS Lightweight 25mm Exhaust Valve +.200 Longer than Stock

also would it be better to have 60lb duals or 48 duals?

 

[panchothedog]

I have built 5 212's, and 2 224's. Recently. Nothing to the extent that you have proposed, but pretty stout none the less. So let me shed some light on what you're doing. The bottom end of the ARC billet rod is a LOT bigger than the stock one.
Putting one in a 224 which has a 58mm stroke requires grinding the block in 4 separate places for clearance. I don't see how a 60mm crank could possibly fit.
You would have to grind the block so much, it would be paper thin, or just blow right through. Also at the bottom of the cylinder you couldn't get enough material out. This would cause you to grind on the rod. Something ARC strongly discourages. Settle for a
58 mm stroke. If you want more displacement, get a block with a 72 mm bore. I think 72 X 58 gives you 236cc's. You need .030" clearance from the top of the piston to the head, and .080" between piston and valves. These clearances can only be determined after the engine is mocked up. Do you know how to use clay to measure valve to piston clearance? 60lb. springs seems way over kill. If you are buying the head from NR racing, buy EVERYTHING from them. And have a LONG talk with their technical guy. They will be able to give you recommendations for a solid build. You are just throwing out catalogue quotes from all over the place. Also anything remotely near what you have in mind is going to require a ARC billet side cover as well. Ask me how I know?

 

[Sparkwizard]

Please reconsider your gear ratio. I do not know what your proposed tire height is, but 3.5:1 is not likely to play nice with your clutch.
Spinning PVC tire sleeves, even on dirt roads might require something closer to 5 or 6 to one, depending on tire size.

 

[butterbagz]

I have built 5 212's, and 2 224's. Recently. Nothing to the extent that you have proposed, but pretty stout none the less. So let me shed some light on what you're doing. The bottom end of the ARC billet rod is a LOT bigger than the stock one.
Putting one in a 224 which has a 58mm stroke requires grinding the block in 4 separate places for clearance. I don't see how a 60mm crank could possibly fit.
You would have to grind the block so much, it would be paper thin, or just blow right through. Also at the bottom of the cylinder you couldn't get enough material out. This would cause you to grind on the rod. Something ARC strongly discourages. Settle for a
58 mm stroke. If you want more displacement, get a block with a 72 mm bore. I think 72 X 58 gives you 236cc's. You need .030" clearance from the top of the piston to the head, and .080" between piston and valves. These clearances can only be determined after the engine is mocked up. Do you know how to use clay to measure valve to piston clearance? 60lb. springs seems way over kill. If you are buying the head from NR racing, buy EVERYTHING from them. And have a LONG talk with their technical guy. They will be able to give you recommendations for a solid build. You are just throwing out catalogue quotes from all over the place. Also anything remotely near what you have in mind is going to require a ARC billet side cover as well. Ask me how I know?

what would you suggest as for springs since I cant use 48lb dual springs with them because of coilbind also the crank I woulf use would be preclearenced also yes I do know how to clay an engine

Please reconsider your gear ratio. I do not know what your proposed tire height is, but 3.5:1 is not likely to play nice with your clutch.
Spinning PVC tire sleeves, even on dirt roads might require something closer to 5 or 6 to one, depending on tire size.

all right thanks for the heads up Ill probably do something like a 4.5 or 5 that with that, tire height is 12 inches

 

[butterbagz]

I have built 5 212's, and 2 224's. Recently. Nothing to the extent that you have proposed, but pretty stout none the less. So let me shed some light on what you're doing. The bottom end of the ARC billet rod is a LOT bigger than the stock one.
Putting one in a 224 which has a 58mm stroke requires grinding the block in 4 separate places for clearance. I don't see how a 60mm crank could possibly fit.
You would have to grind the block so much, it would be paper thin, or just blow right through. Also at the bottom of the cylinder you couldn't get enough material out. This would cause you to grind on the rod. Something ARC strongly discourages. Settle for a
58 mm stroke. If you want more displacement, get a block with a 72 mm bore. I think 72 X 58 gives you 236cc's. You need .030" clearance from the top of the piston to the head, and .080" between piston and valves. These clearances can only be determined after the engine is mocked up. Do you know how to use clay to measure valve to piston clearance? 60lb. springs seems way over kill. If you are buying the head from NR racing, buy EVERYTHING from them. And have a LONG talk with their technical guy. They will be able to give you recommendations for a solid build. You are just throwing out catalogue quotes from all over the place. Also anything remotely near what you have in mind is going to require a ARC billet side cover as well. Ask me how I know?

what would you suggest as for springs since I cant use 48lb dual springs with them because of coilbind also the crank I would use would be preclearenced also yes I do know how to clay an engine

 

[Sparkwizard]

I would ask the camshaft maker for suggestions on springs. They will ask questions and give recommendations based on the intended use and all of the other parts you plan to install. They might even suggest a different cam. They are the key to a successful build. If everything is not in perfect synch, nothing seems to work. The cam grinders are best place for getting a system that works.

 

[butterbagz]

I would ask the camshaft maker for suggestions on springs. They will ask questions and give recommendations based on the intended use and all of the other parts you plan to install. They might even suggest a different cam. They are the key to a successful build. If everything is not in perfect synch, nothing seems to work. The cam grinders are best place for getting a system that works.

all right I will speak to rpq on ebay

 

[butterbagz]

I would ask the camshaft maker for suggestions on springs. They will ask questions and give recommendations based on the intended use and all of the other parts you plan to install. They might even suggest a different cam. They are the key to a successful build. If everything is not in perfect synch, nothing seems to work. The cam grinders are best place for getting a system that works.

If I use stock rockers will the rockers break? so I don't have to worry about valve clearance issues. for dual 48s?

 

[Sparkwizard]

I am not knowledgeable on the details you are asking. That is why I suggested asking a cam grinder/ supplier.
I wish I was that smart, but I do not want to give you bad information. It is a good thing that you are asking these questions before diving into your wallet. There is some good experience here on this site, but I still think you should at least get the details from the cam guys.

 

[butterbagz]

I am not knowledgeable on the details you are asking. That is why I suggested asking a cam grinder/ supplier.
I wish I was that smart, but I do not want to give you bad information. It is a good thing that you are asking these questions before diving into your wallet. There is some good experience here on this site, but I still think you should at least get the details from the cam guys.

well I got all the parts really cheap except my cam crank carb flywheel and rod I appreciate the advice anyway

 

[butterbagz]

I have built 5 212's, and 2 224's. Recently. Nothing to the extent that you have proposed, but pretty stout none the less. So let me shed some light on what you're doing. The bottom end of the ARC billet rod is a LOT bigger than the stock one.
Putting one in a 224 which has a 58mm stroke requires grinding the block in 4 separate places for clearance. I don't see how a 60mm crank could possibly fit.
You would have to grind the block so much, it would be paper thin, or just blow right through. Also at the bottom of the cylinder you couldn't get enough material out. This would cause you to grind on the rod. Something ARC strongly discourages. Settle for a
58 mm stroke. If you want more displacement, get a block with a 72 mm bore. I think 72 X 58 gives you 236cc's. You need .030" clearance from the top of the piston to the head, and .080" between piston and valves. These clearances can only be determined after the engine is mocked up. Do you know how to use clay to measure valve to piston clearance? 60lb. springs seems way over kill. If you are buying the head from NR racing, buy EVERYTHING from them. And have a LONG talk with their technical guy. They will be able to give you recommendations for a solid build. You are just throwing out catalogue quotes from all over the place. Also anything remotely near what you have in mind is going to require a ARC billet side cover as well. Ask me how I know?

Am I good to ask why I would need a arc billet side cover, if I can just vent the stock side cover? I am just curious I am not questioning you at all.

 

[panchothedog]

The crank being pre clearanced has nothing to do with the rod hitting the block in several places. What they mean is that the counter weights on the crank have been ground down enough to clear the block. A 60mm stroke is going to push the rod farther out towards the block than a 58 or 55 mm (stock ) stroke. If you end up using a cam with lots of lift, there is no reason to get ratio rockers. Use the champion brand shaft mounted rockers. They are strong, stay adjusted, and are good for more rpm than the engine will ever see. They're also inexpensive. Less than $30. I have them on 4 of my engines and they work flawlessly. Stock rockers won't last long with stiff springs and high rpm. A stock cam with 1.2 or 1.3 ratio rockers is also something to think about. Once you get up into the 13 to 14 hp range and beyond ( more than double it's original output ) the force placed on the crank shaft from the power stroke is more than the stock block can withstand. This has nothing to do with venting. But that is also necessary. It has to do with the engine block not being strong enough to handle the stress loads placed on it.
I didn't believe it either until I watched 2 of my engines shake off the side cover. Lock tite, stronger bolts, bla bla bla. None of that works. The billet side cover is engineered so well, and so much thicker where it needs to be, that it makes the block much stronger. They work. Talk to E-bay if you want, and I'm sure that they will sell you everything under the sun. The tech guy at NR racing is a super experienced engine builder and his job is putting together the right combination of parts for a strong successful build.

 

[Hellion]

Based on what Pancho just said, I’d want a billet BLOCK (for both sides of the crank) just for the assurance.

My end goal is to have a mean fun racing machine without having to bore out the block.

Well, we ALL want that but that‘s a very vague statement and could literally mean anything.

1. What’s the budget? How much money can you muster?
2. Is this a basic Predator 60363 212 build or other?
3.
4. Profit! $$$$$$ (whoops, wrong meme)

Don’t copy someone else’s build which may have superfluous features and costs added to it, but tailor yours to your own wants and desires.

By the way have you considered a V-twin?

A shopping cart is a “silly“ novelty build, and no offense intended. I was a bit surprised to read that.

 

[butterbagz]

The crank being pre clearanced has nothing to do with the rod hitting the block in several places. What they mean is that the counter weights on the crank have been ground down enough to clear the block. A 60mm stroke is going to push the rod farther out towards the block than a 58 or 55 mm (stock ) stroke. If you end up using a cam with lots of lift, there is no reason to get ratio rockers. Use the champion brand shaft mounted rockers. They are strong, stay adjusted, and are good for more rpm than the engine will ever see. They're also inexpensive. Less than $30. I have them on 4 of my engines and they work flawlessly. Stock rockers won't last long with stiff springs and high rpm. A stock cam with 1.2 or 1.3 ratio rockers is also something to think about. Once you get up into the 13 to 14 hp range and beyond ( more than double it's original output ) the force placed on the crank shaft from the power stroke is more than the stock block can withstand. This has nothing to do with venting. But that is also necessary. It has to do with the engine block not being strong enough to handle the stress loads placed on it.
I didn't believe it either until I watched 2 of my engines shake off the side cover. Lock tite, stronger bolts, bla bla bla. None of that works. The billet side cover is engineered so well, and so much thicker where it needs to be, that it makes the block much stronger. They work. Talk to E-bay if you want, and I'm sure that they will sell you everything under the sun. The tech guy at NR racing is a super experienced engine builder and his job is putting together the right combination of parts for a strong successful build.

you both make really good points thanks only thing is I don't think they make champion rockers for a 212 Hemi head

 

[butterbagz]

Based on what Pancho just said, I’d want a billet BLOCK (for both sides of the crank) just for the assurance.



Well, we ALL want that but that‘s a very vague statement and could literally mean anything.

1. What’s the budget? How much money can you muster?
2. Is this a basic Predator 60363 212 build or other?
3.
4. Profit! $$$$$$ (whoops, wrong meme)

Don’t copy someone else’s build which may have superfluous features and costs added to it, but tailor yours to your own wants and desires.

By the way have you considered a V-twin?

A shopping cart is a “silly“ novelty build, and no offense intended. I was a bit surprised to read that.

Thank you both for the advice honestly honestly Im not sure how much I'm willing to dump into it yeah its a Hemi block build. Not trying to do somone elses build, just trying do my own thing. I have considered a v twin but I want a lightweight build.

 

[butterbagz]

Based on what Pancho just said, I’d want a billet BLOCK (for both sides of the crank) just for the assurance.



Well, we ALL want that but that‘s a very vague statement and could literally mean anything.

1. What’s the budget? How much money can you muster?
2. Is this a basic Predator 60363 212 build or other?
3.
4. Profit! $$$$$$ (whoops, wrong meme)

Don’t copy someone else’s build which may have superfluous features and costs added to it, but tailor yours to your own wants and desires.

By the way have you considered a V-twin?

A shopping cart is a “silly“ novelty build, and no offense intended. I was a bit surprised to read that.

I was planning on spending like 400-600 which (I would have to save up for since I am 17 and not allowed to get a job untill I'm finished with school.)more on the engine I have all the parts except the cam rod flywheel stroker crank rockers and 48lb springs and nibbi 28mm carb