Offroad go kart predator 212 build

[marcusp]

I've been spending all of my freetime lately researching the predator 212 engines and rebuild kits as well as proper gear ratio, tire size, etc. for an offroad go kart build with decent starting speed and top end. So far ive spent most of my hours on these forums here because yall seem to have an inkling of thought behind your posts, and I can tell youll set me straight on my goals. Bought a go kart for next to nothing off my buddy last week and, needless to say, it's got me hooked. It's a small single seater go kart, 196cc greyhound, planning on swapping the clutch for a TC, not sure of the gear ratio yet, I've just been trying to get 'er operational.

Enough with that, on to the point of my post. A coworker of mine is going to give me an old go kart frame of his, I have no idea what it looks like or any of that for this build, just trying to learning about the mechanical side from yall atm.

I'm wanting to build an offroad go kart, think cleared wood trail, backyard, hay field, gravel/paved roads occasionally, some potential hills and potholes. I'm wanting decent top end maybe 35-45 with most of my focus being the launch power, because let's face it, top speed is fun but a good launch will put a grin on yer face (and I'll get myself hurt by turning over too fast of a kart with some stupid antics ).

My current plan I believe I should take from my research so far, is to take a predator 212 and do governor delete, mikuni carb, air intake upgrade, exhaust, TC, either 5:1 or 6:1 gear ratio depending on what is recommended for my goal. It seems as if the springs will keep the engine from reaching much over 5k rpm and would allow me to not have to replace the existing rod and flywheel with billet options. Not sure what the tire size is on the go kart I'm going to get, but I would like something a little tall just for the sake of ground clearance. Yall can advise the best for my build and budget. I'd like to attempt to keep this engine build right at or around 500, I'm happy to take the engine apart as long as the work I'm doing is plug and play, I'm not confident enough yet to be custom fitting parts or porting anything. A kit would be cool so I wouldn't have to hunt for each individual part but im fine to order what I need individually, and I'd prefer not to install these cheap Amazon parts. Let me know what's realistic and the best bang for the buck upgrades I need to do. I'm trying to learn as I go and continue my research so any input yall have is much appreciated!

 

[panchothedog]

For off road use you want 8" rims with 18" tall tires for good ground clearance. A torque converter with a 10 tooth sprocket and a 60 tooth sprocket on the axle. You also need a kart with a live rear axle, as one wheel drive stinks for off road use. Not enough traction. If you leave the engine stock,with the exception of govoner delete, header pipe, low restriction air cleaner, and re-jet the carburater, the tall tires and the torque converter will put enough load on the engine to keep it from reving so high that it comes apart. ANY MORE mods, and it's time for a billet flywheel and rod. Don't know anything about your greyhound engine, but if it's a typical clone engine ( and most 196cc engines are ) it can be built to run as good as a 212. No reason to wast the engine over 16cc's. I have 4 karts and a mini bike. 2 are running 196's, and 2 are running predator 212's. All are hopped up pretty extensively. You can't tell the difference between them.

 

[Denny]

The greyhound was harbor freight’s Honda clone. They got sued by Honda and had to change the design to the current predator. Do like Pancho said and you will reach your goals and have reliability. Maybe keep the stock air cleaner though it works better to keep dirt out of the engine better than any aftermarket cleaner ever dreamed of.

 

[marcusp]

For off road use you want 8" rims with 18" tall tires for good ground clearance. A torque converter with a 10 tooth sprocket and a 60 tooth sprocket on the axle. You also need a kart with a live rear axle, as one wheel drive stinks for off road use. Not enough traction. If you leave the engine stock,with the exception of govoner delete, header pipe, low restriction air cleaner, and re-jet the carburater, the tall tires and the torque converter will put enough load on the engine to keep it from reving so high that it comes apart. ANY MORE mods, and it's time for a billet flywheel and rod. Don't know anything about your greyhound engine, but if it's a typical clone engine ( and most 196cc engines are ) it can be built to run as good as a 212. No reason to wast the engine over 16cc's. I have 4 karts and a mini bike. 2 are running 196's, and 2 are running predator 212's. All are hopped up pretty extensively. You can't tell the difference between them.

Appreciate the information! Is there any benefit in a new carburetor or is the stock one perfectly fine after rejetting? What size/brand jet do you recommend? With my research so far, the rod and flywheel seem like they are relatively plug and play replacements, is that true, and if so do you have a recommendation of which brand to use as a replacement or is there any benefit in doing so with just those few mods. There's a 60 dollar 30 series torque convertor on Amazon, would that be fine provided I use a comet belt or am I better off to get a nicer one such as the 120 option from go power sports?

I was not going to waste the greyhound! The greyhound is on my other go kart and I'm hoping it runs forever because that's my cheapest option . I'm planning on doing cheap Amazon upgrades to it just to see how it runs, but this predator is going to be my "performance" build. Hoping for something super torquey that'll smoke my buddy without sacrificing all the top end.

The greyhound was harbor freight’s Honda clone. They got sued by Honda and had to change the design to the current predator. Do like Pancho said and you will reach your goals and have reliability. Maybe keep the stock air cleaner though it works better to keep dirt out of the engine better than any aftermarket cleaner ever dreamed of.

I will certainly consider keeping that stock air cleaner thank you! Yeah from what ive seen so far the greyhound seems to be a decent engine, i havent got 'er quite purring yet but she is running which is a good start!

I think I've started in the right direction to get to that goal and am asking the right questions (I know it's hard to tell exactly without me having the go kart im going to put) but yall are the ones who have built these engines; I've just spent a few hours reading! If you were building a kart with my goals and your engine budget was around 500 would you go my direction or am I thinking wrong?

 

[Edwin Spangler]

Personally, I would up the budget enough to get a 420 and TQ running, then plan to upgrade later when more funds are available. Im kinda bias against 212s on anything other than a minibike or kids kart. Thats just me though, that could be the wrong way to go.

 

[Hellion]

Funny that air cleaners were mentioned well before there are any photos or other materials seen in the thread but yes, racing filters with their *reduced restriction means an automatic 10HP boost* claims (and the ongoing myth) are often very skimpy on actual particle filtration. Protect the engine should be paramount but I understand some people buy 12 engines at a time and consider them expendable and disposable like a Bic lighter...

...Im kinda bias against 212s on anything other than a minibike or kids kart. Thats just me though, that could be the wrong way to go.

Maybe that's because you are 400+lbs dry but I promise you these engines have a lot of kick and can really get up and scoot!

The OP said "It's a small single seater go kart" so right off the bat it's already looking right (two seaters are dumb!) and he likely won't have to modify the kart heavily to accept the 212 (no telling what it is or what condition it's in). On that note.....

 

[gokartdave]

Well this is my 1 seater gokart with a 6.5 greyhound engine. Has a live axle. Engine is stock, governor still in tact. I shortened the spring. Has a home made exhaust header. Has excellent take off an good top speed. Starts on 1st pull. Never had issues. I believe it would keep up with a predator engine.

 

[Hellion]

That is a great kart and a great photo Dave and is what I would have suggested for an overall setup or the theme for this thread : : :
1. Basic one seater kart, off-road tires, decent size engine but nothing too crazy.
2. TBD

With a non suspended kart, the ride is going to be harsher the more radical the terrain gets, but that's part of the fun. You can always experiment with tire types and air pressures to soften the ride.

A Greyhound is a Predator for all intents and purposes; don't let the sinister Predator name fool you, at least on the basic models.

 

[gokartdave]

Number 2 in progress. Same frame, also have another 6.5 greyhound to go on it.

 

[marcusp]

I would certainly like to protect the engine and not put dirt cheap parts on it, will most likely keep the stock intake and filter. I will post pics of the go kart frame and such when I get it, I know a lot of the advice I'm getting is based off of speculation since I have no pictures yet. I was thinking today, if all I'm doing is some plug and play parts, would I be better with the predator 224 just for that tiny bit of extra torque and hp, not a big difference but it's also not a big price difference for it to matter. Remember 500 is not my firm price budget for the engine build, just the goal I want to be close to.. I appreciate all the feedback so far, I'm eager to learn on this build!

 

[Denny]

The greyhound is a true Honda clone! Hondas are the best engine you could get for a kart. Don’t change the carb or air filter and only jet up if needed. The jungle store 30 series CVT’s are fine and work great once you put on a GENUINE COMET BELT.

The kart looks like a BKS Ground Hawg or equivalent.

 

[gokartdave]

The greyhound is a true Honda clone! Hondas are the best engine you could get for a kart. Don’t change the carb or air filter and only jet up if needed. The jungle store 30 series CVT’s are fine and work great once you put on a GENUINE COMET BELT.

The kart looks like a BKS Ground Hawg or equivalent.

Ya I'm not sure on that kart my blue 1 shows go-fur the black 1 I'm not sure, look similar.

 

[Denny]

Like I said equivalent. Their the same karts just with different stickers on them.

 

[panchothedog]

Well let's get something straight. Two seater karts ARE NOT DUMB. I own 4 of them, and with a built predator 212 and 30 series torque converter they haul butt.
Some answers for Marcusp. The $60 torque converter is perfectly fine. A
re-jetted stock carburetor works great. Especially on what is considered a stage one engine. ( pipe, low restriction air cleaner, governor delete. ) On the low restriction filters, take the end ( foot part ) of a nylon stocking, zip tie it over air filter and spray with off road air cleaner oil. We run our karts in the Southern California desert. Plenty of sand and silt. Never any problems. One of my clone engines is more than 16 years old. I can garuntee you my method works. For aftermarket rod and flywheel, ARC is the best money can buy. American made, and you won't save very much buying questionable Chinese sh-t from Amazon. The rod and flywheel won't make the engine any faster or more powerful. What it will do is keep it from blowing up once you build it for more rpm.( Cam, springs, milled and ported head ). I have built 6 212's and 2 196's and 2 224's. With the exception of cam Journal diameter and bore all internal modification is the same, and I guess you could call it plug and play. Pull out the stock stuff and install the speed parts. Except for the 224. Due to the longer stroke and the increased size of the bottom of the aftermarket rod, the block needs to be clearanced ( ground)
in 3 separate places. Also requires a special clearanced cam. I would choose the 212 if I were you. Especially for the first one. You can easily double the horsepower and actually more. Videos by Red Beards Garage are very helpful and a good source of information.

 

[marcusp]

Well let's get something straight. Two seater karts ARE NOT DUMB. I own 4 of them, and with a built predator 212 and 30 series torque converter they haul butt.
Some answers for Marcusp. The $60 torque converter is perfectly fine. A
re-jetted stock carburetor works great. Especially on what is considered a stage one engine. ( pipe, low restriction air cleaner, governor delete. ) On the low restriction filters, take the end ( foot part ) of a nylon stocking, zip tie it over air filter and spray with off road air cleaner oil. We run our karts in the Southern California desert. Plenty of sand and silt. Never any problems. One of my clone engines is more than 16 years old. I can garuntee you my method works. For aftermarket rod and flywheel, ARC is the best money can buy. American made, and you won't save very much buying questionable Chinese sh-t from Amazon. The rod and flywheel won't make the engine any faster or more powerful. What it will do is keep it from blowing up once you build it for more rpm.( Cam, springs, milled and ported head ). I have built 6 212's and 2 196's and 2 224's. With the exception of cam Journal diameter and bore all internal modification is the same, and I guess you could call it plug and play. Pull out the stock stuff and install the speed parts. Except for the 224. Due to the longer stroke and the increased size of the bottom of the aftermarket rod, the block needs to be clearanced ( ground)
in 3 separate places. Also requires a special clearanced cam. I would choose the 212 if I were you. Especially for the first one. You can easily double the horsepower and actually more. Videos by Red Beards Garage are very helpful and a good source of information.

Just ordered one of those TC for my existing go kart, if it runs fine I'll do the same for this 212 build. Smart thinking on the stocking over the filter! I will look into an arc rod and flywheel while I've got the engine apart for the governor delete. Safe is better than sorry, especially if I end up doing upgraded head or something in the future- I'll already be covered. I've done some brief research on arc flywheels before but not much, is there a specific rod and flywheel I should buy? I'm not sure what is what since there are different kinds for different timings. I had briefly looked into the 224 before and the clearance issues had deterred me.
What I'm hearing so far is
Stock carb: potential rejet in future if it needs to be done
Stock air filter: if I do an aftermarket then ensure better filtering than it provides
18" wheels and tires for clearance
6:1 gear ratio (60:10)
Exhaust doesn't matter a whole lot, any decent Amazon purchase is fine
TC: Amazon tc is fine, run comet belt
Remove governor: if I do NO other upgrades I can be fine, if I plan on ANY other upgrades, upgrade to ARC billet rod+flywheel.

I will keep this thread posted on pictures when I receive the frame and start building an engine, might even post my greyhound go kart as well . One last thought- does a hemi vs non hemi 212 matter? I know there are some build differences there but does it make a difference when it comes to performance and upgrades?

 

[Whitetrashrocker]

The non hemi has more go fast parts.

Sounds like you have a solid plan. Post pics when you can.

 

[panchothedog]

The go kart supply shops ( Go Power Sports, OMB Warehouse, BMI Karts) ect will have a specific rod that fits your engine. Different lengths are available, stock,
+.020" +.040". A distance of .030" between top of piston and head is necessary, to account for crankshaft flex. It can get dicey using the longer rod. There will be two choices for flywheel. One has bigger or more cooling fins than the other. They both have stronger magnets for better spark, and the same advanced timing. Get the one that cools better. Very little difference actually. The non hemi is the one if you plan on hopping it up. Some of the parts ( cam, flywheel, valve springs, rocker arms ) DO NOT interchange between the hemi and the non hemi. When purchasing parts they will be listed as such. Hemi and non.

 

[marcusp]

The go kart supply shops ( Go Power Sports, OMB Warehouse, BMI Karts) ect will have a specific rod that fits your engine. Different lengths are available, stock,
+.020" +.040". A distance of .030" between top of piston and head is necessary, to account for crankshaft flex. It can get dicey using the longer rod. There will be two choices for flywheel. One has bigger or more cooling fins than the other. They both have stronger magnets for better spark, and the same advanced timing. Get the one that cools better. Very little difference actually. The non hemi is the one if you plan on hopping it up. Some of the parts ( cam, flywheel, valve springs, rocker arms ) DO NOT interchange between the hemi and the non hemi. When purchasing parts they will be listed as such. Hemi and non.

Ater browsing some of the options between the main websites, would it be beneficial for me to upgrade the camshaft while I have everything torn apart? The stage 2 kits such as omb and and gps have an included camshaft

Reference: https://www.gopowersports.com/stage...8FBjYiy7aCBHNamIC58rBeXBHedwbnDxoCXmoQAvD_BwE

On the other hand, if the camshaft isn't necessary omb has a "governor removal kit"

https://www.ombwarehouse.com/predator-212-non-hemi-governor-removal-kit.html

Yeah money is an object that I'd like to keep under control, but at the end of the day I'd rather do it right the first time. Especially while I've already got things torn apart... so if the upgraded camshaft is the right way to go for the sake of putting in a better part that's less likely to explode at high rpm I'd rather do that. (It seems like a simple swap, could be wrong). The research I've done so far hasn't led me super deep into the internals so please excuse my ignorance. My experience thus far with engines is a life long enjoyment of old cars, being a light holder or a go'fer if I'm lucky- and the minor work I've done on this greyhound 196cc. This is a learn as we go kinda project

 

[Denny]

The cam in my opinion is not needed. In my opinion the engine will be more reliable with the stock cam. You won’t have to rev its guts out to make power.

 

[Hellion]

I agree with Denny: run what ya have and then you will have a baseline to compare from. For improvements to the baseline you may need at the very minimum the speed app and stopwatch on your hell phone to measure top end and quickness.

Honestly, the OP (original poster) already has an engine and a kart so why not use it and then go from there, learning along the way, tweaking this and tweaking that to make more power and speed?

The kart looks like a BKS Ground Hawg or equivalent.

Doesn't matter, that's not marcusp's kart. Gokartdave is already hijacking marcusp's (the OP) thread and replying to YOU when (I think) you were talking to the OP.....who knows at this point?

Gokartdave, make your own thread. This is not a place to clutter it up with more photos of your go kart project(s) and your thoughts and dreams.
If you have advice for the guy, then give it, but try not to hijack and derail.