PREDATOR 420 Won't Start. Please Help!!

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Stringer

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Ok so I even traded a motorized bicycle I never use (Specialized Hardrock Sport with 35cc Subaru 4 stroke), for a Brister's Trail Wagon TW-400 4X4.

Anyway, I cannot seem to get this thing to start, and it's a new engine about three weeks old. I was told it ran for 1 week then stopped working. It has a new battery and cranks over real good, but will not start. I was actually handed the HF receipt for it, then lost it. :eek:

It's the Predator 420 HF Model 60349. When I got it, the 5 gallon plastic TW-400 gravity fed fuel tank was very dirty. There was no tank filter, inline filter, or barb filter installed. So before I did anything, I removed the tank and cleaned it out thoroughly and installed a new fuel line. I fill with fresh 90 octane non-ethanol with a touch of seafoam added.

I then checked the oil while level and upon removal of dipstick, oil rushed out. So I figure it's got oil, and it looked very clean.

I made sure it was choked, fuel lever on, ignition on, and tried to start it many times with key. Zero luck.

I take out the stock torch plug, it has very light use on it, and seems to be just the right color. I clean it with wire brush, set it against engine, turn key, and get plenty of spark. I reinstall clean plug, it still won't start. I had a new NGK plug so I tried all the same with it, and same story. Sparks good, but engine will not start. I reinstall the stock torch plug.

Then I try taking off the new air filter, and spraying some starter fluid in there several times. No luck.

Then I tried pulling the cord starter to see if there's resistance/compression, and there appears to be. Though I do not have a compression tester at this time. I take plug out a few times after many non-starts, and it appears clean like I left it.

I take off the carb and give it a cleaning with carb cleaner, without dismantling it, and spraying into the jets. I clean out the intake while I'm there so it looks brand new. I put it back together and try to start it again. Still won't start.

At this point I am thinking maybe there is debris in the carb, since the tank looked like someone took a dump in it, and no filter was used. I buy a new identical carb with gaskets and install. No luck.

Then a few times I put a small amount of gas directly in spark plug hole and reinstall plug. No luck.

I go in to drain the oil at this point. Engine is supposed to take 1.16 quarts, and it looked like about 1.5+ quarts came out and it smelled strongly of gas. It otherewise looked very clean.

I am running out of ideas with this thing. What's really frustrating is that it's a new engine. Any ideas? :surrender::surrender:
 

Rail rider

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Check if the fuel valves (1on tank,1on eng) are "ON"..... The jet is clogged.. See if it fires off with a shot of starting fluid in the carb. if it does you need to clean the carb. Correctly this time. You did refill it with oil right?...and the low oil sensor is disconnected. If it wasn't disconnected and you forgot to refill it with oil. leave the sensor connected... It's self preservation instinct already saved it from you once already. :thumbsup:
 

outcrydrummer

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With engine level oil shouldnt rush out of the dipstick hole......its pribably way overfull.
Smell the oil.....my bet is the rinfs are shot and the gas going in the cylinder is washing down into the crankcase making the fill level high......that would explain why it wouldnt run and why the oil level is so high.

If youve sprayed gas or starter fluid in through the air filter and the plug hole and didnt get it to fire the carb isnt the issue.

Youve got spark....you added fuel.....you must be missing compression.

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

Just saw the last parts of your post.
Go rent a compression tester from autozone. I bet your rings are done for.
Probably time to pull it apart and replace rings and rehone the cylinder.....find that receipt and go exchange it better yet......
 

Kartorbust

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Yeah oil should not be pouring out of the fill at all. It was either overfilled or gas somehow got into it and washed it out. Should be able to get a new engine, unless they look into what happened. But it does have to be drained of all fluids before being returned, if I've read their manual correctly. But I do agree get a compression tester and see where it's at. Any of the major auto stores should have them for rent.
 

Joe-405

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I'm afraid these guys are correct. It was either hydrolocked really bad with over full oil or a stuck carburetor.

First thing I would do if you don't have the reciept is pull the valve cover off and make sure the valves are moving like they should.

Second thing is also the compression test.

Third thing would be the flywheel key is broke and it jumped timing.
 

Bbqjoe

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So go buy a new one, clean up the old one, put it in the box and return it for cash. ;)
Wait...That just ain't right.
Never mind.
 

outcrydrummer

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That doesn't explain half of quart worth of fuel in the oil though and if a flywheel is torqued properly it doesn't even need a key so I'm still banking on their is issues with the rings, piston, or cylinder on this one.
Hopefully the OP will do some more diagnosing and let us know what the culprit is.
 

Bbqjoe

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That doesn't explain half of quart worth of fuel in the oil though and if a flywheel is torqued properly it doesn't even need a key so I'm still banking on their is issues with the rings, piston, or cylinder on this one.
Hopefully the OP will do some more diagnosing and let us know what the culprit is.
The guy jacked with the carb and or the float stuck filling the cylinder with fuel?
But how would that kill the rings?

I think the PO did something really, really stupid to kill a 3 week old engine.
 

Stringer

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Thanks for the replies. Just to reiterate, I bought a brand new carb and still have the same issues.

I just put 1 quart, 5.5 ounces of 10w/30 in crankcase I left draining. I just borrowed what appears to be a very high quality compression tester. After installing in plug hole, I crank engine for maybe 4-5 seconds or so and the gauge always tops out and stops exactly on 45 psi. I hope my technique was correct. I found an old post by a member that said he went to HF and compression tested a new one on the shelf and it gave him a reading of 50. Do you think my compression is good?

Thanks for the heads up with the low oil sensor, I suppose I'll just disconnect the wires?

I did notice that the negative ground wire coming from battery was grounded to an engine bracket on top that is aluminum. Assuming that might not be ideal, I moved it to an engine mount bolt that also goes through frame. I polished the area, bolt, and washers with a wire brush until they shined like new. Did I stumble on to something here?

Also have a gas tank leak, but new oem valve and grommet are arriving today.
 

Stringer

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45 psi. Should be like 80 or more.

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

Take off the valve cover and inspect.


Are you sure? I'm trying to find a number and found this, and deemed it to be reliable. Is it not? Thanks.

http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/clone-engine-swaps/75364-stock-420cc-cranking-compression.html#post831720

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

Well I hooked up the new fuel line to the new fuel elbow and new carb. Also disconnect the two wires coming from oil sensor. Put gas in and no luck. Line is clear and I could see it was not getting any gas to carb for some reason. So I disconnect line to carb and fuel starts flowing, and I reconnect to carb. Try starting again many times and no luck. I could see a tiny bubble in the fuel line, and it remained stationary within the line as I was trying to start it. Not drawing into carb. Is there something wrong with this??
 

outcrydrummer

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45 psi is terrible.
Remove your plug and put in a spoon full of oil in the cylinder.
If your compression increases doing that your problem is the rings. That is called wet testing
 

Stringer

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***ISSUE FOUND (I just hope its the only issue)***

[/IMG]

Would this cause poor compression? What are my options? :(
 

outcrydrummer

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Well that appears to be the intake valve so yeah that would cause low compression.

You really need to take the head off and inspect everything....
Is the pushrod bent?
Is the piston in good condition?
Unless that guy swt the valve lash incorrectly there isnt a good reason why the pushrod would have come out from under the rocker.
 
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