Questions about the govenor

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garciafamily

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I have been reading about ways to increase the HP on a Honda 6.5 GX200 engine and it seems like the views are mixed on removing the governor. Some stories I have read say valve springs MUST be changed along with exhaust and air flow improvements. Any suggestions about this would be very helpful
 

KartFab

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rejet carb, high performance intake/filter, performance exhaust, governor remove, direct throttle linkage. will cost about $100 and will get you from 3600 rpms stock to now 5500 rpms

the purpose of the upgrade in valve springs is to keep them from bouncing the valves after 5500 rpm which is like a second governor (called valve float). Also, I have heard that OHV engines that experience valve float may end up breaking/bending the valves due to contact with the piston... the GX200 is an over head valve (ohv) engine... I dont know much about this stuff though, just read about it mainly.

if you upgrade valve springs without upgrading the flywheel and connecting rod, you will run the risk of throwing your rod, and have an increased risk of your flywheel breaking, but chances are it will be your connecting rod breaking a hole in the block

if you want to drop some serious cash, buy the billet connecting rod, flywheel, racing cam, port/polish, etc etc blah blah blah there are so many upgrades.

Want more hp? Consider buying a bigger engine :p it may end up costing you less, but it will also have a lower speed than when upgrading an existing industrial engine. (this is my opinion). Also you want more torque? play with your gearing on the kart, may end up costing you $10-$30 to swap out a sprocket.
 

firemanjim

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If you improve the air flow in and out, open the main jet 1 step, and tweak the governor for a few more rpm, you can safely see about 8hp around 4000-4300 rpm.....
 

Scout

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Removing the governor won't net you any more hp,, it just lets the engine spin a little faster which gets you a little more top speed.
 

itsid

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Removing the governor won't net you any more hp....

again.. that's not true...

it'll not provide more torque,
but caused by the increased rpm it'll indeed have more HP;
simple math ;)

with an upgraded airfilter and exhaust and a well setup carb to account for that
you actually DO increase the torque by a bit.
Not much I'm afraid, but still.. a bit is a bit ;)

And after all.. if your stock 6.5HP engine happily spins 5500-6000rpm while pushing a kart,
it'll output somewhere from 8-9HP (maybe even ten if you're really lucky)

So yeah.. up to 50% gain in HP...

'sid
 

OzFab

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Here's the facts, straight from the factory manual: The torque curve of a Honda GX200 peaks at 4000rpm but, it's governed to 3600rpm so, removing or even adjusting the governor will, in fact, net you more hp...
 

itsid

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No, that's only 50% correct...

I know what you mean, but two things are either equal or not..
and he used a mathematical term.. there is no halfways...
just like a woman is never half pregnant ;)

and torque is not the same as power so.. I still go for 100% correct :D

'sid
 

carter

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Well as far as this debate goes, power is expressed as torque/time. If I remember correctly 1hp=33k ft-lbs per minute or somewhere thereabout. What's interesting about that is that it means more RPM's is not always more horsepower, and in some cases less. In any engine, torque peaks and then drops off. The result of this drop off is at some point an engine will start making less power because even though the work is now being done more quickly, there's less of it being done to an extent where the result is actually less power. That is not to say that an engine's power curve never plateaus, if the torque decreases a certain amount per increase in RPM, it is possible for an engine to make exactly the same amount of power through said RPM range. This is also not to say that you will be able to observe this in every engine, some engines continue to increase in power up to their rev limiter, and many are capable of doing so past their rev limiter as well. With many engines, it's possible to surpass the limits of the materials it's made of before you will experience a power drop, such as when you remove the governor of one of these engines and upgrade the valve springs, and it then proceeds to throw a rod. even though it is getting more powerful until the catastrophic failure.

This all said, whether or not gov removal= more horsepower is entirely dependent on the amount of torque the engine produces in the higher revs.

Sorry for the short book, writing these things actually helps me solidify my own understanding and come to new conclusions.
 

itsid

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Don't forget what we're talking about... small industrial engines 3600rpm ->5500/6000 rpm!
While it's true that a dropping torque curve can cause a higher rpm to produce less HP,
that's unlikely (I'd even say impossible) for our scenario.

Think about it as provided torque per combustion.
Now, the dropping torque curve is partly based on the amount of fuel,
the longer a filling stroke takes the more time the fuel/air mixture has to get into the combustion chamber... and the higher the rpm, the less each stroke takes of course..
so based on the flowrate that means less fuel per combustion; ergo less power (or torue here).
That's why a high flow filter and exhaust together with a rejetted carb comes in handy.
That way you're able to provide a faster fuel delivery, wich keeps the torque curve up for a little longer.

The next factor is the compression, if the valves have time to close properly,
we can assume that, since if they don't we reached our intended rev limiter (valve float)!

and finally ignition timing.
the position of the piston in the cylinder at the time when the compressed mixture is ignited is important for 'quality' of the combustion the amount of fuel being actually burned, thus the amount of expansion being created.
And since the spark has to travel from the coil to the spark plug that takes time... enough time to make a difference at higher rpms.

That's why if you want to have a high revving engine, you either have a billet flywheel with an 8°advance built in or you install timing keys.

With stock valves, it may be usefull to install a 2° or even 4° timing key to have the timing corrected if the engine's torque curve appears to be dropping premature.

keep in mind, we haven't 'added' torque with the modifications, we just altered the curve to our likings with the mods above.

And there we have still say 80-90% of the max torque @ nearly two times the rpm.
and that'd be 8-9HP @5500 or 9-10HP @6200 for a slightly modified 6.5HP engine ;)

'sid
 

carter

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Don't forget what we're talking about... small industrial engines 3600rpm ->5500/6000 rpm!
While it's true that a dropping torque curve can cause a higher rpm to produce less HP,
that's unlikely (I'd even say impossible) for our scenario.
That's what I was talking about when I said many engines will surpass the strength of their materials before they experience power drop off.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to say that these engines will make less power ungoverned, I was simply saying from a theoretical perspective, that his engine might or might not. I agree with you fully though, for our intents and purposes, this effect is probably not quite as important as it is in other applications, and before I'd done any research and come up with this idea, I was saying of course running un governed would produce more HP. However I then remembered how some cars peter out a bit before they hit their rev limiter which got me a bit interested in the maths of it. Having taken a look at the maths and drawing some conclusions of my own, I'd decided to play devils avocado while solidifying my own understanding.
 

itsid

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That's what I was talking about when I said many engines will surpass the strength of their materials before they experience power drop off.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to say that these engines will make less power ungoverned, I was simply saying from a theoretical perspective, that his engine might or might not. I agree with you fully though, for our intents and purposes, this effect is probably not quite as important as it is in other applications, and before I'd done any research and come up with this idea, I was saying of course running un governed would produce more HP. However I then remembered how some cars peter out a bit before they hit their rev limiter which got me a bit interested in the maths of it. Having taken a look at the maths and drawing some conclusions of my own, I'd decided to play devils avocado while solidifying my own understanding.
Well this engine WILL produce more power! ("might not" is not an option here ;))

the effect is very important on all engines..
the question is: how easy it is to alter the torque curve.
And with industrial engines it's rather easy, especially in this first step of improvement.

And let's not get into car engines here..
this is a totally different topic I'm afraid.

But yes, some engines (that appear to be somewhat similar at first) are maxed out already, then you cannnot increase the HP by anything near that degree..

Like motocross engines, even if you find a single cylinder 200cc four stroke it could be beyond any GX200 possibilities already
some even including rpm regulated ignition timing and/or variable cams... and run close to and above 15000 rpm producing 30-45HP....
You will not be able to find another unused HP in an engine like that anymore.

But we're dealing with a different breed here ;)
Slow turning industrial engines...
not much power per se.. but lots of potential :D

'sid
 

Poboy kartman

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Now. ......something I read once.....that at a certain rpm....ALL engines will reach the same amount of torque as horsepower.....

The difference being whether you want torque.... (to get a heavy object moving quickly).....or horsepower. ...(the stamina to run faster and faster)....

Sooooooo.....You can kinda increase torque. ....or horsepower. ...without increasing the other. ....but unless you increase both. ...your are only shifting....one for the other. .......

So..... it's hard to say whether governor removal/adjustment. ...is increasing hp....or just the revolutions. ...the engine is inputting and the axle is recieving.....

So the other thing mentioned. ...is an engine that makes it's most hp at an rpm above what the govenor allows it to achieve. .....

So....really. .... adjusting/removing....does not "increase" the hp of an engine. ....however. ...it DOES increase the available Hp at a certain rpm range.....the debate continues. ...

However. ....my opinion is that changing rpm....does NOT increase hp.....it only puts it a usable range....it was there all along....and helping with torque....

My two cents. ......
 

itsid

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ah you americans... :D

yes, 5252 rpm ...
then the amount of HP is equal to the amount of torque in ft-lb
but that's just an approximation,
using SI values you're off again (and not just a bit ;))

That's imperial unit trickery.. or as we in the real world call it: BS! :D

And I'm sorry but you're wrong...
an engine is a mechanical device.
And now it comes.. a single combustion cannot produce anything but FORCE
that force is translated into a rotation, thus providing TORQUE
And only if you sit right next to it and measure the TIME it takes to do so
you can calculate POWER

welcome to the phenomenal world of applied physics ;)

So, no, you can NEVER trade Torque for Horsepower
(not without a gearbox.. wich in our example could be considered a time machine :eek:)

And a restricted engine (governed to 3600) can only provide that much HP.
it onle PRODUCES that much HP...
and if we remove that limitation we INCREASE the max Poweroutput of said engine ;)

'sid

PS a fairly nice explanation can be found here:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/power_and_torque.htm
 

carter

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ah you americans... :D

And a restricted engine (governed to 3600) can only provide that much HP.
it onle PRODUCES that much HP...
and if we remove that limitation we INCREASE the max Poweroutput of said engine ;)

Hey now, I'm an american.

We only increase the max output if the torque keeps above a certain threshold at certain RPM's. Of course these engines will continue to build power past the governed RPM. I'm not aware of the extent to which it does though, which is where cams, larger carbs, advanced timing, and tuned pipes come in to build more torque/shift torque higher up in the rev range.

I think we're on the same page, I just like to be a PITA.
 

OzFab

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Although all this is good, valuable information, it's getting a bit out of hand when you consider the original question; how about we dial it back a bit & help this poor fella bump up his engine a bit...

:backtotopic:
 
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