running with some extra O2

[builder bob]

i was wondering if any one has gotten any preformence gains by feeding an engine pure (or nearly there) oxygen. i've run an 18cc weedy engine off a water bottle and a transformer but the carb wasn't working then so i don't know if it rely was adding to much to the engine's preformence. my uncle ran a hydrogen oxygen mix to his truck engine in an attempt to get better gas milige. that doesn't work though because the elements are combined by the spark so the gas isn't burning as well, which means that the hydrogen and oxygen reaction will not be noticeable.
any body done this?

 

[DS13]

i was wondering if any one has gotten any preformence gains by feeding an engine pure (or nearly there) oxygen. i've run an 18cc weedy engine off a water bottle and a transformer but the carb wasn't working then so i don't know if it rely was adding to much to the engine's preformence. my uncle ran a hydrogen oxygen mix to his truck engine in an attempt to get better gas milige. that doesn't work though because the elements are combined by the spark so the gas isn't burning as well, which means that the hydrogen and oxygen reaction will not be noticeable.
any body done this?

I would think that like your uncles truck you will mess with the oxygen: gas ratio but im no expert. The only way i would think to increase performance is to add a small turbo, me and my buddies were talking about this one day, but id rather live haha.

 

[builder bob]

i think it might work if i left out the hydrogen but i'll only do tests on an engine i don't care about first.

it's realy hard to find a mini turbo! i've searched alot but the smallest one's i've found are for motor cycles. if it's too big it won't do much because it won't get up to speed. maybe an electric turbo on low power would work so you didn't blow the engine, i don't know

 

[builder bob]

here's what i was thinking:

 

[DS13]

My thinking is that you are gonna blow the ratio out of proportion and the engine wont run unless ya jetted out the engine? if that does work youll go through gas like its your job...

Just my 2 cents

 

[devino246]

The combustion of hydrogen and oxygen is an exothermic reaction; combine the two, add a spark, and you get fire and water vapor...

Feeding any fuel to an engine requires metering the fuel. This is especially difficult when the fuel is a gas, since gasses are compressible. For the average hobbyist, metering gaseous fuels to an engine isn't possible.

 

[builder bob]

hmm... maybe if i completely removed all air and just hooked up O2 then it'd still work. i'd think that not to much change to the mix would be needed to do that and oxygen would work better in an engine instead of mixed with all those other gases in air

 

[DS13]

The combustion of hydrogen and oxygen is an exothermic reaction; combine the two, add a spark, and you get fire and water vapor...

Isn't there a certain ratio that has to obtained for the spark to create the fire and water vapor?

 

[builder bob]

The combustion of hydrogen and oxygen is an exothermic reaction; combine the two, add a spark, and you get fire and water vapor...

Feeding any fuel to an engine requires metering the fuel. This is especially difficult when the fuel is a gas, since gasses are compressible. For the average hobbyist, metering gaseous fuels to an engine isn't possible.

ya that's why i don't want to add more hydrogen. do you have a pic of a metering system? i might be able to build one.

 

[devino246]

Isn't there a certain ratio that has to obtained for the spark to create the fire and water vapor?

There's a range, and it's a very wide range. Hydrogen is reactive. Burning hydrogen almost always results in water vapor or hydrogen peroxide vapor.

 

[builder bob]

Isn't there a certain ratio that has to obtained for the spark to create the fire and water vapor?

I don't know if this is right but I think that they'll always combine unless they bond with something else or there just isn't enough of either to make water

 

[devino246]

hmm... maybe if i completely removed all air and just hooked up O2 then it'd still work. i'd think that not to much change to the mix would be needed to do that and oxygen would work better in an engine instead of mixed with all those other gases in air

You'd throw the engine all off.

ya that's why i don't want to add more hydrogen. do you have a pic of a metering system? i might be able to build one.

You already have a metering system on your engine: the carburetor. You're not going to be able to build a metering system for a gas, though. You'd need to vary the gas input based on engine RPM and throttle angle. Carburetors work by siphoning gasoline out of the float bowl. That won't work with a gas. The best way to meter a gas would be with an air regulator, oxygen sensor(s), mass airflow sensor, and computer.

 

[builder bob]

You'd throw the engine all off.

that's true, i wouldn't be able to change throttle if it was just like that.

You already have a metering system on your engine: the carburetor.

i thought u ment some other thing, i know what a carb does!

The best way to meter a gas would be with an air regulator, oxygen sensor, and computer.

or run more/less power to the electrolysis machine with change in rpm. that could be done with an alternator or some other way of getting some power off the engine. one would be needed anyway to be able to keep getting oxygen.

 

[devino246]

or run more/less power to the electrolysis machine with change in rpm. that could be done with an alternator or some other way of getting some power off the engine. one would be needed anyway to be able to keep getting oxygen.

Allow me to refer you to two posts of mine in another thread concerning "HHO".

You're missing half of the electrical equation: AMPS. Any idea how many amps a car battery can output? 350-800, depending on the battery. That's a HUGE amount of energy. You can't get something for nothing; physics doesn't work that way. The more draw you put on the charging system, the more work your engine has to do. Let's look at an example:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

120 amp alternator, outputting 14 volts

120x14= 1,680 watts

1 horsepower = 746 watts.

1680/746 = 2.25 hp

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Electrolysis, under ideal conditions, requires 143 kJ of energy per mole of water. Ideal conditions include supplying 1.48V to the water. So, your other 12.52V are just heating up the water.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hydrogen atomic mass: 1.00794
Oxygen atomic mass: 15.9994

2(1.00794)+15.9994= 18.01528

Mass of 1 mole of water: 18.01528g

One ounce of water weighs 29.574g

29.574/18.01528= 1.64160 moles per ounce

1.64160x143= 234.74972 kJ per ounce

Now, Joule is a measure of energy, while Watt is a measure of power. Watt= Joule/second

177.6 x S =234.74972 kJ

S = 1.32178

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming my math is correct, you're drawing 177.6W in order to break apart 1 ounce of water every 1.32178 seconds. Don't think you're going to be producing a whole lot of gas at that rate. Buuut, why don't we figure out just how much?

Density of oxygen at room temperature: 0.001429 g/cm3

Density of hydrogen at room temperature: 0.00008988 g/cm3

One mole of water weighs 18.01528g, two moles of hydrogen and one mole of oxygen in that

1.00794x2= 2.01588g of hydrogen per mole of water

15.9994g of oxygen per mole of water

1.64160 moles per ounce of water

2.01588x1.64160= 3.30926g of hydrogen per onuce

15.9994x1.64160= 26.26461g of oxygen per ounce

3.30926/0.00008988= 36818.64708 cm3 or 0.0368186471 m3

26.26461/0.001429= 18379.71308 cm3 or 0.0183797131 m3

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that prefer SAE measurements, that's 1.30024 cubic foot of hydrogen and 0.649073 cubic foot of oxygen every 1.32178 seconds! That might have an effect at idle, but when you consider that a car may consume upwards of 5 cubic feet per second at cruise, and that my calculations are using numbers in ideal conditions, that's not crap.

Electrolysis is a cool experiment, no doubt, but it has no place on an automobile.

 

[Doc Sprocket]

Aren't we kinda reinventing the wheel here? Or in this case, reinventing Nitrous Oxide?

 

[DS13]

Aren't we kinda reinventing the wheel here? Or in this case, reinventing Nitrous Oxide?

Im thinking so, if ya wanna increase performance by putting air or a mixed gas combination into an engine why not just use something that is already proven... aka a turbo.

and with that....

i surrender

 

[builder bob]

ok sounds like you know what your talking about! i guess it's not a good i do it then. darn, it would've looked cool even if it didn't work. how bout i hook some nitro to my engine? i've got a couple gallons of it! lol i'd definitely blow my little engine doing that especially seeing as it'll break at 10,000 rpm and that's barely how fast my nitro engine idles!

 

[Doc Sprocket]

it would've looked cool even if it didn't work.

Ain't that the truth? Looking cool don't win the race, but it do win cool points!!!

 

[builder bob]

why not just use something that is already proven... aka a turbo.

if you can find one please tell me! not being able to find a small enough turbo

Aren't we kinda reinventing the wheel here? Or in this case, reinventing Nitrous Oxide?

it's funny how laughing gas can make a car faster! i wonder why more dentists don't drag race?

Ain't that the truth? Looking cool don't win the race, but it do win cool points!!!

especially on the bike i want to use the engine for, just is going to look cool.

 

[DS13]

if you can find one please tell me! not being able to find a small enough turbo

It depends on your engine, like you said you cant find a turbo small enough cause the smallest they go is for motorcycles/dirt bikes. The reason i could use it is because i have a kx 125. If you don't then there may not be a turbo for you engine. From there ya can go to bigger air filters or a cold air intake but i have not heard about them on go karts.

My one buddy is big into cars and i asked him about building a custom turbo out of a block of aluminum with a mill, he said it would be possible but the tolerances for turbos are ridiculously small, like 1/1000th of an inch. Plus the fans would have to be custom made and somehow would be bolted together....

all in all it isnt feasible to try to build a custom one for any engine that is smaller than a dirt bike engine.