Sprockets and Torque/Power question

barryjfriedman

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Hi All,

Kids and I built an all electric go kart.
Lots of steel - probably 150lbs.
Using 1800w 48v MY1020 - been told it is really 1300w continuous.
60t live axle and a 10t driver. #42 chain. 3 ft.

Goes ok. Heats up a bit and sluggish up hill with passengers (200lbs).

Been suggested I change sprockets. Maybe 80t and 10t #35 chain.

Thoughts?
Barry
 

itsid

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my thoughts would be to actually measure the weight of the kart
to have a starting point.
Since frankly I've seen lots of "oh probably 150 lbs" that are actually closer to 300 lbs
(people and karts btw ;))

peak torque of all electric motors is at 0 rpm
so the motor is slowing down to climb uphills since it needs more torque to do so.
that's a very usual behaviour, and while that feels very odd if you're used to combustion engines (doing the same until they drop below peak rpm and then just stall and die)
you cannot drop below peak rpm on an electric motor.. so as long as it moves you're good.

But truth is.. the better gearing you got, the cooler it stays, and the longer it lasts.

A major part of the overall gear ratio that's often ignored is wheel size!
A 6:1 ratio on 11" wheels is a totally different thing than 6:1 ratio on 18" wheels

So also let us know your wheel size (driven wheels)

Short: any larger sprocket on the axle will improve the setup
(cooler running motor, feeling less sluggish uphills [will stay at about the same uphill road speed though, just at higher rpms ;)])

how far up the toothcount will be required is a question of real world weight
80T on the axle sounds good to me since it's a big step in the right direction.
But it also means the kart might end up being ~25% slower,
which might not make your kids too happy.

So we might find a beter compromise with some math ;)

'sid
 

barryjfriedman

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Thank u sid

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

My front tires are 12” and back are 14.5”

Kart alone is 200 with batteries but w/o passengers
Passengers are 150-250 alone

I am buying a 10t driver and 80t driven with a #35 chain

I did have to reverse wires to get the motor to rotate in right direction given I had to reverse the placement of the motor. Functional artist helped with that.

I am thinking of relocating 4 batteries from backmover live axle to passenger side leg area - thoughts?

Thanks for everything.
Barry
 

itsid

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Well, relocating the batteries might be a good idea.
a good weight distribution (ideally 50/50) over the axles,
make a much nicer handling vehicle.
especially the grip of the front wheels will increase,
(harder turning wheels when not moving, but better precision steering when moving)
I'd say do it!

back to the gear ratio
so 14.5" and 450lbs since kids grow quick let's round up to 500lbs..

I'll stick with the 8:1 ratio suggestion you got.

it's exactly half way between the current 6:1 and the max needed 10:1 to not struggle up any western road.

IDK how much going uphills is needed and how steep of a hill it has to climb exactly
(5° is about a 9% slope and should cover most roads in the western world ;))

But that should still give you about 19mph on level ground and keep the motor a bit cooler overall while struggling less uphills.

here's a through explanation of why I came to that conclusion:

more details in the calculation thread ;)

500 lbs that's roughly 225kg.
and we assume a max mechanical output of 1300 Watts.

Force-inclination:
steep streets and roads
Fi = 225 kg * 9.81 m/s² * sin(5) = 192.37 N

off road hills
Fi = 225 kg * 9.81 m/s² * sin(10) =383.28 N

expected max speed for a 1300 W power output
(going up that specific inclination):

1300 W / 192.37 N = 6.76 m/s
or
1300 W / 383.28 N = 3.39 m/s

1 m/s is about 2.237 mph

so we have an uphill top speed of about 15.12 mph on road
and 7.58 mph for steeper offroad inclines.

Common 1.8kW 48V BLDCs run at about 4000 rpms (3500 some, 4200 some others)
I picked the 3500 option here since it makes the math so much easier..
and the worst thing that could happen if your's turns quicker is that the kart is going a bit faster. :D

now matching up the known values..
for a 14.5" diameter wheel it's circumference is 3.7961 ft.
mph * 88 is ft/minute
so we have a top speed of 1330.56 fpm (667.04 fpm resp.)

and that divided by the circumference
gives us the rotational speed of the wheels.
means 350.51 W-rpm (175.72 W-rpm respecitvely)

and finally
engine rpm / wheel rpm = gear ratio
3500 by 350 is a nice round ten ;)
(offroad thingy would yield near 20)

So in order for the kart to not struggle at all going uphills
(on a steep road mind you) it'd need a 10:1 gear ratio
and the kart will not go any quicker than 15 mph.

offroad that will be a quite nasty 20:1 in order for it to not struggle at all. (that's not exactly feasible ;))

So my suggestion for heavy offroading would be to drop weight and increase power rather than adjusting the gear ratio.

means we're stuck with a max 10:1 ratio.
(since that's only needed for going up that hill, the half way point is a good idea IMHO)

'sid

PS feel free to adjust any value I rounded or guessed to one that's closer to your real situation (kart/road etc) to get a better calculation.
 

barryjfriedman

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Thank you sid

Wow - I so appreciate your really digging into my situation and offering such wonderful feedback. As I might have mentioned the kart is primarily for my 22 yr old son with some special needs - just to give him the opportunity to feel like he is driving since he isn’t able to get a drivers license. So speed isn’t too big an issue as much as handling and safety. But even on suburban hills it was going so slow as to take the fun out of it and also strain the motor HEAT! I may eventually have to upgrade the motor. Maybe I can also strip out some steel without loosing integrity.

Stay healthy! How is the COVID scene where u are?
Barry
 

itsid

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*shirt* my browser crashed.. I'll try to be brief this time ;)

Ah so your son isn't growing any longer.. that's nice,
that means we can stick with the 450 lbs you mentioned.
That changes the above calculation to yield a 9:1 ratio for the ~9% slope (5 degree)

if you could measure the steepest hill the kart has to climb more or less flawless- and frequently,
we can dial that further in towards a better number even.
your phone GPS might be all that's needed
(measure the altitude at it's peak and it's base, be sure to have a strong gps signal so the error margin isn't at 15ft or so ;); then measure the rolling distance between the two spots,
so we can average the slope of that hill)

As far as heat goes.. yes ALL motors produce heat, usually between 10 and 20% of their power is transformed to heat,
for a 1300W motor you can safely expect 130-260W of thermal output which is quite significant.
I'd say it's time to adjust once the motor gets too hot to touch (~60°C [ 140F I think])
if it has neodymium magnets it must not heat up past 80°C (176F?) since at that point you cook off the magnetic field and weaken the magnets thus reducing it's torque and mechanical power and producing more and more heat...
if it's gott ferric magnets you gain a bit of tolerance but at 120°C (248 F I guess)
chances are you start boiling off the insulation from the coil and eventually end up with a short.

So yeah.. a classic "hands on" approach (literally) can tell you if you need to take precautions already.
by lowering the gear ratio, since a quicker turning motor can wick off it's heat more easily (moves air quiker ;))

The uphill speed isn't really a matter of gear ratio though;
a perfect motor has it's peak torque at 0rpm and at it's peak rpm zero torque;
so it dials in it's rpm according to the load and torque required.
so an ideal 1300W motor would pull the 500lbs up that 9% slope at 15 mph,
no matter if geared 4:1 or 10:1
Downside: there aint no perfect motors available..
so real world values WILL vary! (still gives a good clue though)

Anyways, upgrading the motor..
yes might be the best thing to do,
unfortunately that's not exactly cheap.

I'd suggest a 3kW goldenmotor (it's fairly priced at 288 USD )
and a matching kellycontroller (cheaper than the one goldenmotor suggests ;))
still you'd have to spend ~500 dollars to set this up, which is still a significant amount.

I'd pass on more amazon/ebay chinese products tbh.. they're nice to play with,
and certainly can do alot, but since there's nearly no real datasheet or any reliable information,
it's getting quite nasty around the edges and finding their true limits is more often than not tedious and sometimes disillusioning.
(like buying a 1800W motorkit, finding the controller cannot even provide more than 1400W of electrical power, and the motor running at 78% efficiency making it in fact a 1.1kW mechanical power motor is kind of a kick in the ba..sement)

'sid

PS gov gave some slack, and it's now worsening slightly again...
I'll spare political comments, but allow me to say I'm glad I live in germany,
quite a good place to be in times like these.
 
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