proper fuel pump setup and questions

[Masonisgreat35]

i have a 196cc that im about to install a fuel pump on but im wondering what the proper way to set them up is

do i need a return line back to the fuel tank, and if so how would i go about that with a stock carb, ive read something about putting a T fitting valve in the line that runs back to the tank and you can open or close to adjust fuel pressure would that be a good idea?

would a pcv valve on the pulse line to fuel pump prevent gas from getting in the oil if the pump failed

is ethanol fuel bad for the pump

is there anything i should know and look for once installed

thanks for any help and info

 

[BrownStainRacing]

i have a 196cc that im about to install a fuel pump on but im wondering what the proper way to set them up is

do i need a return line back to the fuel tank, and if so how would i go about that with a stock carb, ive read something about putting a T fitting valve in the line that runs back to the tank and you can open or close to adjust fuel pressure would that be a good idea?

would a pcv valve on the pulse line to fuel pump prevent gas from getting in the oil if the pump failed

is ethanol fuel bad for the pump

is there anything i should know and look for once installed

thanks for any help and info

Post pics of your set up.

Stock engine mounted tanks with stock style carbs don't need a fuel pump.

You mentioned pcv in your other thread.
I found 1 way check valves relieve pressure outta the crankcase and not let air back in.

Very simple, very cheap, and works much better then the stock valve in the valve cover.

Description says for fuel, but I use them for air and have no problems.

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[bob58o]

If possible, ethanol free gas is probably the best bet for all Lawn, garden, marine, gokart, minibike,… stuff. You probably don’t need to use it. I like to put a fuel shutoff shortly after the tank. Shut off the fuel, then let the engine die by letting it run the carb dry. It will help prevent gunk and junk.

I don’t know about pulse pumps all that much. Pumps that put out more than about 1psi will blow past the needle valve and seat that shuts off the fuel flow. This is why the T fitting with a return line to the tank is used. Otherwise, some carbs come with alternative needle/seat for use with fuel pumps. The T with return allows the carb to use what it needs and divert the rest.

Im not sure if a check valve in the pulse line will work. I’m not sure if it will allow the diaphragm to work properly.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

yeah i bought some pcv valves off amazon can take em apart im assuming to rebuild or clean idunno

no stock tank this tanks off a DR50 kids dirtbike

my fuel shutoff lever on tank was snapped off flush so its permantly on, thats how i got the tank
i just use the fuel shutoff on the stock carb sediment bowl and let the bike run the carb bowl dry as well every single time im done riding

the carb is a stock carb with butterflys so i dont think it will have the issue of blowing past needle/seat

yeah now that i think about it more i dont think the pcv in pulse line would work

heres some pictures of the motor and bike its on, the blue line is vent to catch can, other two lines one is fuel from tank u can see an inline filter on and other is vent from crankcase to valvecover witch then vents to blue line to catchcan

i havent gotten around to finishing the front brakes, there there just not functional yet, i should of just orderd a disc brake rim but i dident lol

 

[Denny]

The pcv valve is of no use to you on this engine.

 

[bob58o]

I’m talking about the needle valve attached to the float in the carb. Gas fills the bowl, the float rises, the needle seats in its seat. This stops the fuel from filling the bowl. If the fuel pressure is more than the carb is set up for (like when using a fuel pump on a carb set up to be gravity fed) the needle will not be able to hold the fuel back. The bowl will overfill and spill gas out the vents.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

The pcv valve is of no use to you on this engine.

howcome?

 

[Masonisgreat35]

I’m talking about the needle valve attached to the float in the carb. Gas fills the bowl, the float rises, the needle seats in its seat. This stops the fuel from filling the bowl. If the fuel pressure is more than the carb is set up for (like when using a fuel pump on a carb set up to be gravity fed) the needle will not be able to hold the fuel back. The bowl will overfill and spill gas out the vents.

ahh i misunderstood, so i just have to run a T in the line to return some fuel to the tank that makes sence

 

[Denny]

If that is the tank you are using and its placement above the engine gravity will work just fine. A pcv valve is not a check valve. It’s open or closed and needs a large volume of flow to work. Those check valves shown earlier are a better option.

 

[BrownStainRacing]

yeah i bought some pcv valves off amazon can take em apart im assuming to rebuild or clean idunno

no stock tank this tanks off a DR50 kids dirtbike

my fuel shutoff lever on tank was snapped off flush so its permantly on, thats how i got the tank
i just use the fuel shutoff on the stock carb sediment bowl and let the bike run the carb bowl dry as well every single time im done riding

the carb is a stock carb with butterflys so i dont think it will have the issue of blowing past needle/seat

yeah now that i think about it more i dont think the pcv in pulse line would work

heres some pictures of the motor and bike its on, the blue line is vent to catch can, other two lines one is fuel from tank u can see an inline filter on and other is vent from crankcase to valvecover witch then vents to blue line to catchcan

i havent gotten around to finishing the front brakes, there there just not functional yet, i should of just orderd a disc brake rim but i dident lol
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That tube you have running from the old gov rod hole to the valve cover is totally useless.
Almost as useless as a blow up dollie with a hole in it. Don't ask me how I know this.

Plug that gov rod hole up, and put another 1 way check valve inline with the hose you have from the valve cover to the atmosphere.

That way you will have 2) 1 way check valves going to the atmosphere, and not pulling air back into the crankcase.

As @Denny says, your fuel goes down hill, no need for a fuel pump.

I would throw that fuel filter in the closest garbage can i could see, or better yet....... i would mail it to my ex wife jus to hear her ***** and whine about what a piece of $hit fuel filter I sent her.

Yea, its really that bad.

They make really cheap clear, see thur fuel filters with paper elements.
I have yet to find a better filter then paper.

That's an older baja warrior frame. The weakest part is the tubes under the neck, it will crack those down tubes when you start hitting it with power.
Your 196 has got the potential to fold em in half.

I reinforce those with plates on both sides.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

If that is the tank you are using and its placement above the engine gravity will work just fine. A pcv valve is not a check valve. It’s open or closed and needs a large volume of flow to work. Those check valves shown earlier are a better option.

i was calling it a pcv as they are one way check valves, at least everything ive read about them say so, maybe i was misinformed either way these are the check valves i have
Evil Energy 3/8" Fuel Check Valve One Way Inline Non Return Diesel Gasoline Black(10mm OD,2PCS) : Amazon.ca: Automotive

i figured the placement was fine, but ordered a pump just incase as i can use it on my vtwin if i dont need it for this

 

[Masonisgreat35]

That tube you have running from the old gov rod hole to the valve cover is totally useless.
Almost as useless as a blow up dollie with a hole in it. Don't ask me how I know this.

Plug that gov rod hole up, and put another 1 way check valve inline with the hose you have from the valve cover to the atmosphere.

That way you will have 2) 1 way check valves going to the atmosphere, and not pulling air back into the crankcase.

As @Denny says, your fuel goes down hill, no need for a fuel pump.

I would throw that fuel filter in the closest garbage can i could see, or better yet....... i would mail it to my ex wife jus to hear her ***** and whine about what a piece of $hit fuel filter I sent her.

Yea, its really that bad.

They make really cheap clear, see thur fuel filters with paper elements.
I have yet to find a better filter then paper.

That's an older baja warrior frame. The weakest part is the tubes under the neck, it will crack those down tubes when you start hitting it with power.
Your 196 has got the potential to fold em in half.

I reinforce those with plates on both sides.

how come the tube running from gov rod hole to valve cover is useless? it spits oil directly ontop of the rockers n springs then drains back down between pushrods id figure it would be a benefit in oiling slightly rather than it just misting its way up from the crank
ive also read you can drill out the drain hole for higher rpm like 9-10k so oil dosent pool in head if u were to see those rpm, this motor probably wont though 7000rpm will probably be all it sees

how come 2 check valves? is that incase one fails, i have one check valve currently coming off the head to catchcan, i dont need the can but its nice

the idea of needing a pump i figured i could possibly be draining the carb bowl at full throttle, if i dont need it i can always throw it on my vtwin as it needs a new pump anyway

the fuel filter im assuming is bad flow? or does it disintegrate and clog carb or somthing? how come its bad

it is indeed an older warrior, mb165 i believe
absolutely the plan is to add gussets to the frame for sure before any heavy riding, just trying to get motor running nice then ill probably strip frame, brace and repaint

thanks for the info!

 

[BrownStainRacing]

how come the tube running from gov rod hole to valve cover is useless? it spits oil directly ontop of the rockers n springs then drains back down between pushrods id figure it would be a benefit in oiling slightly rather than it just misting its way up from the crank
ive also read you can drill out the drain hole for higher rpm like 9-10k so oil dosent pool in head if u were to see those rpm, this motor probably wont though 7000rpm will probably be all it sees

how come 2 check valves? is that incase one fails, i have one check valve currently coming off the head to catchcan, i dont need the can but its nice

the idea of needing a pump i figured i could possibly be draining the carb bowl at full throttle, if i dont need it i can always throw it on my vtwin as it needs a new pump anyway

the fuel filter im assuming is bad flow? or does it disintegrate and clog carb or somthing? how come its bad

it is indeed an older warrior, mb165 i believe
absolutely the plan is to add gussets to the frame for sure before any heavy riding, just trying to get motor running nice then ill probably strip frame, brace and repaint

thanks for the info!

It's actually too much oil going to the head, when you have it that way. And oil will make its way passed the intake valve seal.

If that oil hole was blocked or welded up, like they do when they bore and resleeve for a 3" bore, then yes you need that hose from rod hole to valve cover to oil the top of the head.

That mist is plenty of oil, more then enough.

Pop that valve cover off and start it up, there's plenty of oil getting up there.

As for the drain hole between the lifters, only open it up to 3/16". When it gets too big, huge amounts of oil gets slung up there.
Again, it's too much for the top of the head. More oil is needed in the crank case.
You jus need a mist to cool the top of the head and valve parts.

2) check valves
I've spent hrs and hrs testing the crankcase pressure in these clones engines.
Too much pressure under the piston, will slow the piston down and the engine can only rev to a certain rpm.

The vacuum/pressure gauge don't lie.

There's less pressure in the crank case at ALL rpms, with 2) one way check valves.
Even old worn out tiller engines showed less pressure with 2.

Hook up a vacuum/pressure gauge, you will see 2 is better then 1.
I seen no difference with 3 or more.

That filter.
I see those alot on mowers, yes they deteriorate.
That plastic screen is usally in tiny pieces, stuck in the fuel line or in the carb.
Some of those big v-twin zero turn mowers are a real pain to get the carb off and apart. All for a 50 cent filter.
I swap em over to a paper element filter, change it once a year, and no more carb problems. Unless they let it set for months,

You will never drain that bowl from jus running.
The main jet would have to be bigger then the needle seat.
Those seats are around .050". Mild built clones only need a .031" - .038" main jet.

Here's a pic of the vacuum/pressure gauge on my mini. It idles at 2000 rpm, with 2" of vacuum and 2lbs of pressure. I never see it over 10 lbs, my normal cruise rpm is 5000-5900.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

It's actually too much oil going to the head, when you have it that way. And oil will make its way passed the intake valve seal.

If that oil hole was blocked or welded up, like they do when they bore and resleeve for a 3" bore, then yes you need that hose from rod hole to valve cover to oil the top of the head.

That mist is plenty of oil, more then enough.

Pop that valve cover off and start it up, there's plenty of oil getting up there.

As for the drain hole between the lifters, only open it up to 3/16". When it gets too big, huge amounts of oil gets slung up there.
Again, it's too much for the top of the head. More oil is needed in the crank case.
You jus need a mist to cool the top of the head and valve parts.

2) check valves
I've spent hrs and hrs testing the crankcase pressure in these clones engines.
Too much pressure under the piston, will slow the piston down and the engine can only rev to a certain rpm.

The vacuum/pressure gauge don't lie.

There's less pressure in the crank case at ALL rpms, with 2) one way check valves.
Even old worn out tiller engines showed less pressure with 2.

Hook up a vacuum/pressure gauge, you will see 2 is better then 1.
I seen no difference with 3 or more.

That filter.
I see those alot on mowers, yes they deteriorate.
That plastic screen is usally in tiny pieces, stuck in the fuel line or in the carb.
Some of those big v-twin zero turn mowers are a real pain to get the carb off and apart. All for a 50 cent filter.
I swap em over to a paper element filter, change it once a year, and no more carb problems. Unless they let it set for months,

You will never drain that bowl from jus running.
The main jet would have to be bigger then the needle seat.
Those seats are around .050". Mild built clones only need a .031" - .038" main jet.

Here's a pic of the vacuum/pressure gauge on my mini. It idles at 2000 rpm, with 2" of vacuum and 2lbs of pressure. I never see it over 10 lbs, my normal cruise rpm is 5000-5900.

if they block or weld the hole when resleeved for 3" how does the oil return to the crankcase wudent the head fill with oil? or does it kinda flow back and forth thru the line from crank to head? or does it return down with pushrods thru the lifters?

i can see theres tons of oil splashin around in the head due to the clear valve cover, but figured more couldn't hurt
how come its bad is it because it keeps too much oil in the head and not the crankcase or only because it will go through the intake seal

thats interesting about the check valves ill throw my other one in line with the one currently on there

ill order a handfull of paper element filters when i go to order other things needed

i did doubt i would drain the bowl but thought maybe its possible

thanks for the info its very helpfull

 

[BrownStainRacing]

if they block or weld the hole when resleeved for 3" how does the oil return to the crankcase wudent the head fill with oil? or does it kinda flow back and forth thru the line from crank to head? or does it return down with pushrods thru the lifters?

i can see theres tons of oil splashin around in the head due to the clear valve cover, but figured more couldn't hurt
how come its bad is it because it keeps too much oil in the head and not the crankcase or only because it will go through the intake seal

thats interesting about the check valves ill throw my other one in line with the one currently on there

ill order a handfull of paper element filters when i go to order other things needed

i did doubt i would drain the bowl but thought maybe its possible

thanks for the info its very helpfull

Not the oil drain back hole between the lifters, that's the only way back down to the crank case.

The hole on the top right of the cylinder is where the oil comes from the crankcase.
They weld that up, then bore the block to accept a bigger sleeve. The bigger sleeve makes that area really thin, so builders would weld that oil hole up making the block stronger.

They got alot better, thicker, stronger blocks these days. But builders will still use a head gasket that blocks that oil hole off.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

Not the oil drain back hole between the lifters, that's the only way back down to the crank case.

The hole on the top right of the cylinder is where the oil comes from the crankcase.
They weld that up, then bore the block to accept a bigger sleeve. The bigger sleeve makes that area really thin, so builders would weld that oil hole up making the block stronger.

They got alot better, thicker, stronger blocks these days. But builders will still use a head gasket that blocks that oil hole off.

ahh for some reason i cudnt remember that hole being there while picturing it, i forgot about it that makes alot more sence

 

[BrownStainRacing]

ahh for some reason i cudnt remember that hole being there while picturing it, i forgot about it that makes alot more sence

On the gov rod hole, jus leave a short piece of tubing on it, stick a bolt in the tube and a small hose clamp to seal it.

When you get a vacuum/ pressure gauge, hook it to the short piece of tube, and you will see what I'm talking about with the check valves.

Take 1 out and pressure /vacuum goes up, take both out and it goes up even higher. The more rpm, the more pressure it will have.

These engines do need vacuum and pressure in the crankcase for a good ring seal, but not 10lbs.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

On the gov rod hole, jus leave a short piece of tubing on it, stick a bolt in the tube and a small hose clamp to seal it.

When you get a vacuum/ pressure gauge, hook it to the short piece of tube, and you will see what I'm talking about with the check valves.

Take 1 out and pressure /vacuum goes up, take both out and it goes up even higher. The more rpm, the more pressure it will have.

These engines do need vacuum and pressure in the crankcase for a good ring seal, but not 10lbs.

would it be any real harm to leave it how it is vented from block to valve cover or do u highly recommend blocking it off and just using it as a vacuum test port

i do plan on getting a gauge to mess around with, currently i dont know much about vacuum but would be worth it to learn, espeically when i start messin with the v8 in my camaro

 

[BrownStainRacing]

would it be any real harm to leave it how it is vented from block to valve cover or do u highly recommend blocking it off and just using it as a vacuum test port

i do plan on getting a gauge to mess around with, currently i dont know much about vacuum but would be worth it to learn, espeically when i start messin with the v8 in my camaro

It's not hurting anything, it's jus got more oil being slung into an area that's already got too much oil to begin with .

I would plug it with a bolt and clamp, and use the other end of the hose to add another check valve.

Vacuum/ pressure gauges are almost a thing of the past.

They were used for tuning automotive carbs.

If you can find 1, it'll probably be less then $12.

 

[Masonisgreat35]

It's not hurting anything, it's jus got more oil being slung into an area that's already got too much oil to begin with .

I would plug it with a bolt and clamp, and use the other end of the hose to add another check valve.

Vacuum/ pressure gauges are almost a thing of the past.

They were used for tuning automotive carbs.

If you can find 1, it'll probably be less then $12.

ive got a mildly top end built 305 v8, with a carb so sounds like i need me one lol reminds me i gotta go see what heads i have on there