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I wasn't talking about steel tubes vs massive aluminium
I was talking about aluminium tube vs massive aluminium.
And uhm.. wheel industry..
don't get me wrong, but when all you have is a hammer.. everything will look like a nail!
Nevermind
'sid
Introducing Myself & Spec Carts
- Thread starter thedecider33
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I wasn't talking about steel tubes vs massive aluminium
I was talking about aluminium tube vs massive aluminium.
And uhm.. wheel industry..
don't get me wrong, but when all you have is a hammer.. everything will look like a nail!
Nevermind
'sid
thedecider33
New member
...
I wasn't talking about steel tubes vs massive aluminium
I was talking about aluminium tube vs massive aluminium.
And uhm.. wheel industry..
don't get me wrong, but when all you have is a hammer.. everything will look like a nail!
Nevermind
'sid
Ahhh sorry for a confusion. And yes, he's a pretty successful engineer so I trust his judgement. I sounds like you have some insight though and we would love to connect. I'll reach out through PMs.
Love that quote too
We will absolutely pursue the best solution. We are a very open minded organization. I don't care how we skin the cat, as long as we get it right.
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Is sounds like we have some takers for $1k haha. I am excited to post some videos to see what you guys think. It makes my honda xr200 look like Power Wheel.
OzFab
Well-known member
Unfortunately, I don't see how you would make a profit with a sale price of $1k, I mean, even if you opt for a cheap Chinese pit bike engine/trans, that alone is around 30% of the sale price...
IMO, a realistic sale price would be closer to $3k...
IMO, a realistic sale price would be closer to $3k...
thedecider33
New member
Yes 1k definitely won't be the msrp. The Msrp will be closer to $2500.
In terms of equipment, I want it to compete with the quality and reliability of a Honda CR150 (MSRP $4900)
I also won't cheap out and sacrifice reliability. Its a very serious machine. Being able to rival the experience of an Ariel Atom (50k) will fetch a price tag and I want to compete on the experience, not the price.
I want people to say it is the most enjoyable way to spend 20 minutes on a recreational vehicle (atv, dirt bike. .. etc)
mckutzy
Well-known member
If Ducati or any other of the major motorcycle manufactures havent made a cast(die/sand/ investment ect) frame.... than I dont think you will be able to make an afordable/reliable frame of that size.
From personal experience of injection molding and other metallurgical processes.... A mold for that size of vehicle frame..... will be in the $100K+ mark.... at least, probably higher.......
A second look off hand, a detailed part of that size...... Mold will be in the millions......
An item like that, its the machine that make it.... that dictates the price......
From personal experience of injection molding and other metallurgical processes.... A mold for that size of vehicle frame..... will be in the $100K+ mark.... at least, probably higher.......
A second look off hand, a detailed part of that size...... Mold will be in the millions......
An item like that, its the machine that make it.... that dictates the price......
Poboy kartman
Senior Moments Member
Yeah...Sorry...sad but true....a lot of negative brought out here....but all pretty sound advice. We're here to HELP...not to discourage good ideas.
I'm a think out of the box....do the impossible with no money kind of guy....but..we all have to face reality.
Sooo...let's take two steps back...and re-examine your concept.....
Major stumbling block.....the cast frame...now...on a baby stroller...or even a bicycle...might be a recoverable investment....but think about it....how many doors would have to knock on to find a gokart owner? A house with a baby stroller? A house with a bicycle? Catch my drift?
However.....just throw the cast frame out of the equation....abandon the total concept of a customizable platform for retail consumers....and you may have something.
Instead...think and go in a totally different direction....pitch this vehicle to amusement parks like Six Flags. Stick with the steel frame. Pitch this idea to folks with money to start up a race kart experience track. Here just north of me...there is a racetrack....you may have heard of it: Texas Motor Speedway.
It spends a lot of time idle. It's much cheaper and easier to get in touch with the powers that be....than throw money away on a most likely failed venture.
Now....in this same (general) area....GoPowersports has a kart track. There's a man...maybe you've heard of him: Jerry Jones....made his money in oil....but didn't stop there....never met the man personally, but I did get very close to his silent partner....anyway Jerry is one fart smeller....if he doesn't take interest in what you have to offer....he may....(if you catch him on a good day)....give you better advice than I can.
Just some random thoughts......OH... and send the first 25% of the first million to 'The Poboy Fund ...C/O Chancer the Clown Enterprises.'
I'm a think out of the box....do the impossible with no money kind of guy....but..we all have to face reality.
Sooo...let's take two steps back...and re-examine your concept.....
Major stumbling block.....the cast frame...now...on a baby stroller...or even a bicycle...might be a recoverable investment....but think about it....how many doors would have to knock on to find a gokart owner? A house with a baby stroller? A house with a bicycle? Catch my drift?
However.....just throw the cast frame out of the equation....abandon the total concept of a customizable platform for retail consumers....and you may have something.
Instead...think and go in a totally different direction....pitch this vehicle to amusement parks like Six Flags. Stick with the steel frame. Pitch this idea to folks with money to start up a race kart experience track. Here just north of me...there is a racetrack....you may have heard of it: Texas Motor Speedway.
It spends a lot of time idle. It's much cheaper and easier to get in touch with the powers that be....than throw money away on a most likely failed venture.
Now....in this same (general) area....GoPowersports has a kart track. There's a man...maybe you've heard of him: Jerry Jones....made his money in oil....but didn't stop there....never met the man personally, but I did get very close to his silent partner....anyway Jerry is one fart smeller....if he doesn't take interest in what you have to offer....he may....(if you catch him on a good day)....give you better advice than I can.
Just some random thoughts......OH... and send the first 25% of the first million to 'The Poboy Fund ...C/O Chancer the Clown Enterprises.'
mckutzy
Well-known member
The Indian motorcycle, has investment cast elements that are mechanically fasten to each other, to make a frame for the cycle....
They aren't 1 piece..... Im assuming the OP is intending a 1 piece design.....
They aren't 1 piece..... Im assuming the OP is intending a 1 piece design.....
Poboy kartman
Senior Moments Member
Yeah...I had that thought as well...bolt together cast pieces...but..I just think the whole idea isn't going to fly...(casting).
Just out of curiosity, weren't those Indian parts cast steel?
mckutzy
Well-known member
The original Indian motorcycle are.... Most others are too... even today...
But the new Indians are defiantly a cast alloy....
But the new Indians are defiantly a cast alloy....
My 2cents worth.
I think it looks great! I would love to drive it. The wheels could use some speed holes.
Now the business side of things.
you want to be comparable to the atom. Well than plan on selling the same number of units as the atom.
the atom is a niche market. Its a track car. You are building a track cart that dosent fit in a currant class of racing.so who is your customer? The elite track oriented go karter. I think that is a very slim market. But all that said you can be the atom of the gokart world if you keep cost down to were a large group of people could afford it. Then start some sanctioned type of road racing league. Like the legend racing cars. Unfortunately that type of racing is not as popular as it once was.
With any widget you must determine your market first. Who is your customer? How and where will they use your widget? How much can they afford to spend on said widget? .
An all aluminum tube chassis seems to be the answer to your cost and strength and weight issues.
MrC.
I think it looks great! I would love to drive it. The wheels could use some speed holes.
Now the business side of things.
you want to be comparable to the atom. Well than plan on selling the same number of units as the atom.
the atom is a niche market. Its a track car. You are building a track cart that dosent fit in a currant class of racing.so who is your customer? The elite track oriented go karter. I think that is a very slim market. But all that said you can be the atom of the gokart world if you keep cost down to were a large group of people could afford it. Then start some sanctioned type of road racing league. Like the legend racing cars. Unfortunately that type of racing is not as popular as it once was.
With any widget you must determine your market first. Who is your customer? How and where will they use your widget? How much can they afford to spend on said widget? .
An all aluminum tube chassis seems to be the answer to your cost and strength and weight issues.
MrC.
thedecider33
New member
A lot of great things here, no question. Definitely not discouraged. I am not married to how the frame is made. Worst case I can build a heavier kart with steel tubes and still deliver a rock star experience.
Frankly I am excited and surprised everyone has been so helpful and interested. It makes me want to explain my whole plan.
I would agree the market isn't huge but at the same time margins on go karts can make the venture very profitable. Frankly I don't expect to build a 50mil firm. For me this venture is about passion.
The recreational vehicle market isn't that small either: (Just to paint a broad brush)
http://www.statista.com/statistics/326013/us-atv-sales/
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2015/02/article/motorcycle-sales-up-3-8-for-2014/
http://www.e-kmi.com/ArchivesPost2005/re/KART RACING INDUSTRY DEMOGRAPHICS.htm
** Those are figures in the US alone.
In terms of understanding my customer and projecting the market, I subscribe to the lean start up method. Once my minimum viable product is complete I am going to test the market and see just how many people would actually pay for a Spec Cart at the price that is profitable to scale.
Whether 5 people or 500, I'll know just how desired what I am creating is.
I do like the amusement park idea. I thought of something similar
If 400 people are looking to purchase a Spec Cart at the right price then I have the backing to deliver the product. THAT BEING SAID, if you know Jerry Jones .. . . . CONNECT ME!!
MrC, I need to get you in the drivers seat! An ariel atom has pretty dismal production numbers. I think mainly because they are a 50k track car when you can get similar performance from a 12k 2000s miata (modded). I'm not trying to build a track cart. Im not trying to build the best handling or even the fastest cart.
For my car guys I think this is a good example. In the 2014 911 gt3 they go rid of the manual gear box because its obviously slower than the dual clutch magic box Porsche makes. Everyone had a fit and Porsche is now bringing back 6 speed because it wasnt about being faster, the experience was more important.
So thats my dream. That people survey their options for recreational go karts and say hands down. Specs Carts are the coolest and most fun Kart of them all.
Long winded but just trying to paint a picture
---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 PM ----------
send the first 25% of the first million to 'The Poboy Fund ...C/O Chancer the Clown Enterprises.'
^^ This I can do haha. I get rich you get rich!
Frankly I am excited and surprised everyone has been so helpful and interested. It makes me want to explain my whole plan.
I would agree the market isn't huge but at the same time margins on go karts can make the venture very profitable. Frankly I don't expect to build a 50mil firm. For me this venture is about passion.
The recreational vehicle market isn't that small either: (Just to paint a broad brush)
http://www.statista.com/statistics/326013/us-atv-sales/
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2015/02/article/motorcycle-sales-up-3-8-for-2014/
http://www.e-kmi.com/ArchivesPost2005/re/KART RACING INDUSTRY DEMOGRAPHICS.htm
** Those are figures in the US alone.
In terms of understanding my customer and projecting the market, I subscribe to the lean start up method. Once my minimum viable product is complete I am going to test the market and see just how many people would actually pay for a Spec Cart at the price that is profitable to scale.
Whether 5 people or 500, I'll know just how desired what I am creating is.
I do like the amusement park idea. I thought of something similar
If 400 people are looking to purchase a Spec Cart at the right price then I have the backing to deliver the product. THAT BEING SAID, if you know Jerry Jones .. . . . CONNECT ME!!
MrC, I need to get you in the drivers seat! An ariel atom has pretty dismal production numbers. I think mainly because they are a 50k track car when you can get similar performance from a 12k 2000s miata (modded). I'm not trying to build a track cart. Im not trying to build the best handling or even the fastest cart.
For my car guys I think this is a good example. In the 2014 911 gt3 they go rid of the manual gear box because its obviously slower than the dual clutch magic box Porsche makes. Everyone had a fit and Porsche is now bringing back 6 speed because it wasnt about being faster, the experience was more important.
So thats my dream. That people survey their options for recreational go karts and say hands down. Specs Carts are the coolest and most fun Kart of them all.
Long winded but just trying to paint a picture
---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 PM ----------
send the first 25% of the first million to 'The Poboy Fund ...C/O Chancer the Clown Enterprises.'
^^ This I can do haha. I get rich you get rich!
chancer
ɔ ɥ ɐ u ɔ ǝ ɹ
With any widget you must determine your market first. Who is your customer? How and where will they use your widget? How much can they afford to spend on said widget? .
Right... Where is Joe Blow that buys this actually gonna be able to drive it. You see our site even turning more into suspension mini buggies than Karts. There is nowhere legally to drive a kart other than off road.
To Who and where will your kart be sold to and Driven at.
I still really would like to "drive" one. In a big Giant empty parking lot for a few hours. But I could never afford that. and If I owned it and tried to use said parking lot regularly I would get run off.
Right... Where is Joe Blow that buys this actually gonna be able to drive it. You see our site even turning more into suspension mini buggies than Karts. There is nowhere legally to drive a kart other than off road.
To Who and where will your kart be sold to and Driven at.
I still really would like to "drive" one. In a big Giant empty parking lot for a few hours. But I could never afford that. and If I owned it and tried to use said parking lot regularly I would get run off.
Nowadays it's fairly simple to test the market.. thanks to kickstarter and indigogo and such..
Sure, you must spread the word, but I don't see an issue there.
Oh.. just to throw in another idea:
How about getting in contact with divergent microfactories?
They have a driveable supercar tube framed aluminium "nodes" (small pieces of printed aluminium rather than cast...) interconnected by carbon tubing.. called Blade.
Check it out and see if you can derive an idea from that.
especially the "fixing a crack" and "iterating the design" is quicker and cheaper to do.
Plus: the unassembled car chassis fits in a big gym bag and weighs just over 100lbs ... which is great if you want to sell internationally;
just imagine you can offer to ship to anywhere in the world for something like $120 instead of $1200
And best of all: according to it's CEO incredibly cheap to produce!
OH and Eric.. carbon tube, bolted to 3d printed aluminium parts...propelled by 700 horses
also a viable way of fusing the tubes obviously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU7LhQsLthA
'sid
Sure, you must spread the word, but I don't see an issue there.
Oh.. just to throw in another idea:
How about getting in contact with divergent microfactories?
They have a driveable supercar tube framed aluminium "nodes" (small pieces of printed aluminium rather than cast...) interconnected by carbon tubing.. called Blade.
Check it out and see if you can derive an idea from that.
especially the "fixing a crack" and "iterating the design" is quicker and cheaper to do.
Plus: the unassembled car chassis fits in a big gym bag and weighs just over 100lbs ... which is great if you want to sell internationally;
just imagine you can offer to ship to anywhere in the world for something like $120 instead of $1200
And best of all: according to it's CEO incredibly cheap to produce!
OH and Eric.. carbon tube, bolted to 3d printed aluminium parts...propelled by 700 horses
also a viable way of fusing the tubes obviously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU7LhQsLthA
'sid
Denny
Canned Monster
My biggest worry about the cast aluminum frame is what happens when you crash the darned thing. Does it shatter into a thousand little projectiles and spears? Does the human driving it receive all the shock and energy from the crash and the cart frame sustains little damage? Or does it fold up like a steel tubed cart? Some one who buys something like this will also want the ability to repair the frame. I have never heard of someone not wrecking a go kart at least once if only by accident. With go karts it is not so much a question of if you will wreck but more a matter of when and how much it will hurt. 
Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. One other comment before I go. In production runs some times it is necessary to make changes for various reasons. How easy will it be to make changes to a mold for a frame and what kind of down time will you encounter. People don't like companies that shut down.
Denny
Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. One other comment before I go. In production runs some times it is necessary to make changes for various reasons. How easy will it be to make changes to a mold for a frame and what kind of down time will you encounter. People don't like companies that shut down.
Denny
thedecider33
New member
Nodes is a great idea! That is my first time seeing this and I am definitely going to reach out to to them. It could present an opportunity to simplify production.
Denny, I definitely hate companies that shut down. I had an old tecumseh streaker kart and when they shut down I had to sell the kart. Couldnt even find a used carb. In our simulations, the kart bounces rather than folding. Bouncing is better for repair also. Once we have a production example I will be able to tell you certain. Hopefully I won't be the first crash dummy.
If I have the capital I expect, changing a mold mid production won't be an issue. That being said the frame construction is probably the most up in the air component of this exercise. I promise I won't bring a product to the market that isn't ready. The chassis will be the foundation of the kart so it will stand the test of time.
But what do you think Denny. Would you buy one?
Denny, I definitely hate companies that shut down. I had an old tecumseh streaker kart and when they shut down I had to sell the kart. Couldnt even find a used carb. In our simulations, the kart bounces rather than folding. Bouncing is better for repair also. Once we have a production example I will be able to tell you certain. Hopefully I won't be the first crash dummy.
If I have the capital I expect, changing a mold mid production won't be an issue. That being said the frame construction is probably the most up in the air component of this exercise. I promise I won't bring a product to the market that isn't ready. The chassis will be the foundation of the kart so it will stand the test of time.
But what do you think Denny. Would you buy one?
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