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Old 02-26-2020, 08:31 AM
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Default [mostly incorrect.. be warned!] - Battery 101

There's been a lot of discussion & confusion about batteries used to power small personal vehicles (kart's minibikes etc.)

So, I assembled some info

Battery [ˈbadərē]
1.a container consisting of one or more cells, in which chemical energy is converted into electricity and used as a source of power. "battery power"
2.a fortified emplacement for heavy guns. "anti-aircraft missile batteries"
3.a set of units of equipment, typically when connected together. "a battery of equipment to monitor blood pressure"

"A battery is a device consisting of one or more electrochemical cells with external connections for powering electrical devices such as flashlights, mobile phones, and electric cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_battery
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:40 AM
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Default Battery Types (Chemestries)

Batteries are/have been constructed in many different configurations
…& with many different materials
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:37 AM
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Lithium Polymer batteries are Lithium Ion batteries.

Quote:
A Li-Po battery has a polymer cathode and a solid electrolyte
that's just WRONG! they use a polymer a paste like polymer.. it's technically still a LIQUID
solid takes a few more years (according to the LiIon King himself [Goodenough])
And LiPos are exactly AS dangerous if mistreaded as classical LiIon wet cells

And you have a misunderstanding of anode and cathode I'm afraid
the ANODE is always oxydating and the CATHODE always reducting..

in a galvanic cell the anode is negative and the cathode is positive
in an electroylitic cell they swap .. the anode is positive and the cathode negative

And most of all they swap places when being charged and being used

So, don't use such terms at all if you refere to the positive and negative terminal
(or use them correctly )

I think there's more flaws in your writeup..
like " The more electrode material contained in the cell the greater its capacity."
is incorrect if you do not specify the TYPE of material being identical

but I only crossread it so far..
as it is I can spill out walls of text just as easily.. but I can't get mysself to read them too willingly

'sid
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
Lithium Polymer batteries are Lithium Ion batteries.


that's just WRONG! they use a polymer a paste like polymer.. it's technically still a LIQUID
solid takes a few more years (according to the LiIon King himself [Goodenough])
And LiPos are exactly AS dangerous if mistreaded as classical LiIon wet cells

And you have a misunderstanding of anode and cathode I'm afraid
the ANODE is always oxydating and the CATHODE always reducting..

in a galvanic cell the anode is negative and the cathode is positive
in an electroylitic cell they swap .. the anode is positive and the cathode negative

And most of all they swap places when being charged and being used

So, don't use such terms at all if you refere to the positive and negative terminal
(or use them correctly )

I think there's more flaws in your writeup..
like " The more electrode material contained in the cell the greater its capacity."
is incorrect if you do not specify the TYPE of material being identical

but I only crossread it so far..
as it is I can spill out walls of text just as easily.. but I can't get mysself to read them too willingly

'sid
Please understand, this info is NOT compiled & posted for someone of your intelligence level


So, please feel free to comment/correct any info that you feel is wrong
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Old 02-26-2020, 01:05 PM
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Sorry Kevin, I don't mean to sound rude.. really..
it's just that misquoted information or misleading terminology
can cause all degrees of troubles.
from "oh nothing happens" right up to
"Kevin said LiPos are bullet proof.. Now I kablammed my butt into the hospital"

that's why I'm a bit too picky about the details..

I just want to be sure you don't lure an uneducated boy into believing he could try what he shouldn't ever.
And if you compile a ton of information, chances are that untrained random bypasser
just extracts what sounds best to him.. misquoting you again..
and the troubles potentiate themselves

I'd rather ask you to remove all "only half right" stuff and leave it with just the few most basic things..
skip ALL technology and internals as good as you can.. most of that is common misbelief
(you must not store or mount an AGM upside down)
some of which can cause rather severe troubles

The idea of that thread is great.. but it needs a make over IMHO
especially if you keep the tech-bits in that are just plain incorrect and potentially dangerous even.


I'll try to read it thoroughly twice and sugegst some correction a bit later today

'sid
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Old 02-26-2020, 01:42 PM
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Default Battery Cell Voltage Differences

Also, there are voltage differences between battery types.
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Old 02-26-2020, 06:38 PM
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You completely skipped nickel based batteries. These are a very viable method for powering your kart and given they are relatively cheap(used) compared to Li-ion and eliminates many of the downsides of SLA. Just because they're a beginner doesn't mean you shouldn't be skipping information. Also Lithium Iron Phosphate and Lithium Titanate are usable and easy to get. Don't go around saying there are "only 3x of batteries" because there are a lot more!!
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tpdingo View Post
You completely skipped nickel based batteries. These are a very viable method for powering your kart and given they are relatively cheap(used) compared to Li-ion and eliminates many of the downsides of SLA. Just because they're a beginner doesn't mean you shouldn't be skipping information. Also Lithium Iron Phosphate and Lithium Titanate are usable and easy to get. Don't go around saying there are "only 3x of batteries" because there are a lot more!!
Please, feel free to add/post any "pertinent" info, that may be of interest or helpful to folks
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:19 PM
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I get a feeling he's only nagging you by mocking the whatandthehow I said earlier
So no worries about how he said it, maybe not even too much about what he said I guess.

But yeah there's not just Lithium Manganese for Lithium ion..
since again you totally ignore that Lithium Polymer batteries are a subset of Lithium ions

it's like saying
in north amerika there's Canada, the USA and Texas
the USA is made of Michigan and Washington and Texas is mostly dust.


disregarding that no matter what
Texas is a subset of the USA and
the USA is far more than just Michigan and Washington.
And while there is a fair amount of dust in Texas it's maybe not what defines it as being Texas, is it?

So pleaaaaase don't sparkle in examples making them sound like defining features.
since even if the statement is true
(usa is in north america and is partly made of michigan and washington)
it's still a MISLEADING information, isn't it?

'sid
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:15 AM
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Default Battery Pack Voltage Range Chart

...
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Old 02-27-2020, 10:27 AM
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and again.. that's INCORRECT!

LiIon Cells... you do the same fricking error over and over and over again!

LiIon cells are NOT LiIon cells!!!

cell Voltage for some more common types of LiIon batteries:
LiCoO2 : 3.6V (cobalddioxid that's about the most common type)
LiMnO2 : 3.7-3.8V (the manganesedioxide one you named specifically above as being the "only Li Ion" type varies slightly based on specific ratio)
LiFePO4 : 3.3V (No that's no Polymer that's Ironphosphate)
Li2FePo4F : 3.6V
And that's only scratching the surface..
theres some nickel some aluminium, some tin, some cobald(III) some titanium some this and some that and several of something else
And all of those specific chemicals all have their very own specific voltages, uses and limits

for god's sake stop pretending to compile an exhaustive list already..
explain what there is to explain about batteries..
and what novice users have to take care of,

and leave the rest aside.. it's of no F* use especially not if it's wrong enough to cause
a dangerous thermal runaway batpack

What you you think yould happen if the user refers to your list..
takes a LiFePO4 battery (eoc voltage is 3.6V so BELOW your claimed nominal voltage of 3.75)
and tries to wham 42V onto his 10S pack...

correct it'll burst into violent flames!

this is getting outright dangerous, and I am very much inclined to take the whole thread down already.

Again, I like the idea,
but the execution is terrible,
your topic screems "I know what to take care of"
and the content proves the exact opposite to the trained eye,
and the untrained eye will be lead into your false assumptions and
can end up with their shed, home and/or crotch burned down

'sid
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Old 02-27-2020, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
and again.. that's INCORRECT!

LiIon Cells... you do the same fricking error over and over and over again!

LiIon cells are NOT LiIon cells!!!

cell Voltage for some more common types of LiIon batteries:
LiCoO2 : 3.6V (cobalddioxid that's about the most common type)
LiMnO2 : 3.7-3.8V (the manganesedioxide one you named specifically above as being the "only Li Ion" type varies slightly based on specific ratio)
LiFePO4 : 3.3V (No that's no Polymer that's Ironphosphate)
Li2FePo4F : 3.6V
And that's only scratching the surface..
theres some nickel some aluminium, some tin, some cobald(III) some titanium some this and some that and several of something else
And all of those specific chemicals all have their very own specific voltages, uses and limits

for god's sake stop pretending to compile an exhaustive list already..
explain what there is to explain about batteries..
and what novice users have to take care of,

and leave the rest aside.. it's of no F* use especially not if it's wrong enough to cause
a dangerous thermal runaway batpack

What you you think yould happen if the user refers to your list..
takes a LiFePO4 battery (eoc voltage is 3.6V so BELOW your claimed nominal voltage of 3.75)
and tries to wham 42V onto his 10S pack...

correct it'll burst into violent flames!

this is getting outright dangerous, and I am very much inclined to take the whole thread down already.

Again, I like the idea,
but the execution is terrible,
your topic screems "I know what to take care of"
and the content proves the exact opposite to the trained eye,
and the untrained eye will be lead into your false assumptions and
can end up with their shed, home and/or crotch burned down

'sid
But, if all this info is incorrect
...YES please delete/remove the entire thread

If you understand what I'm trying to accomplish
...why don't you PLEASE do it for us
...as obviously I CAN'T
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Old 02-27-2020, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post
This thread was only supposed to be about the (3) specific types of battery cells that users have been using recently (Lead, Li-PO & Li-Ion)

Lead- SLA's & such
Li-Po- them packs built using 18650 cells
Li-Ion- the reused EV "pouch" modules
& doesn't claim to cover anything else
Kevin you do not listen...
that's the point!!!
you want to be specific, yet you terribly fail
(you must with battery tech.. there are just too many tiny differences)

if you say LiIon, then either cover ALL LiIon batteries or NONE!
(all would be impressive; Sony hasn't revealed the composition of their famous VTC6 for example... just the important values: 3.6V Nominal 4.2V eoc and 2.5V min that's all you get to know.. oh and it's some magical LiIon stuff.. in 18650 size mostly)
So stick with NONE instead!
name it explain it, it's danger, it's use and how to treat it safely..
and then STFU for all the rest.

you cannot just assume a user is picking a Lithium Manganese for your entertainment
if he ends up with a Lithium Cobalt or worse Lithium IronPhosphate
he's in trouble

those are ALL LiIon cells (and yet once again.. LiPolymer batteries ARE LiIon batteries as well which you completely missed from post #1)

But the second you say a LiIon's cell voltage is nominally 3.75Volts
you are just terribly wrong..
since that's only true for manganese cells..
(in fact it's not, it's an average of the different manganese cells out there but alright)

Almost ALL other LiIon cells have a LOWER nominal voltage!

And again a terrible mistake..
now you say 18650 are Lithium Polymer batteries.. when in fact they are NOT
are there 18650 LiPo batteries? .. sure I bet there are.
but why make it look like there ain't any others
to add pointless, possibly dangerous but surely "incorrectly generalized" information,
when just leaving that bit away makes it a much more usefull post?

And LiIon do not just come in pouches!
(yet you just said so)
I have tripple A LiIon and 18650s and LiPos in pouches now what?

'sid
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Old 02-27-2020, 12:39 PM
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Just delete and start over or hide until its perfect. Be much neater and easier as long as facts are right.
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Old 02-27-2020, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
Kevin you do not listen...
that's the point!!!
you want to be specific, yet you terribly fail
(you must with battery tech.. there are just too many tiny differences)

if you say LiIon, then either cover ALL LiIon batteries or NONE!
(all would be impressive; Sony hasn't revealed the composition of their famous VTC6 for example... just the important values: 3.6V Nominal 4.2V eoc and 2.5V min that's all you get to know.. oh and it's some magical LiIon stuff.. in 18650 size mostly)
So stick with NONE instead!
name it explain it, it's danger, it's use and how to treat it safely..
and then STFU for all the rest.

you cannot just assume a user is picking a Lithium Manganese for your entertainment
if he ends up with a Lithium Cobalt or worse Lithium IronPhosphate
he's in trouble

those are ALL LiIon cells (and yet once again.. LiPolymer batteries ARE LiIon batteries as well which you completely missed from post #1)

But the second you say a LiIon's cell voltage is nominally 3.75Volts
you are just terribly wrong..
since that's only true for manganese cells..
(in fact it's not, it's an average of the different manganese cells out there but alright)

Almost ALL other LiIon cells have a LOWER nominal voltage!

And again a terrible mistake..
now you say 18650 are Lithium Polymer batteries.. when in fact they are NOT
are there 18650 LiPo batteries? .. sure I bet there are.
but why make it look like there ain't any others
to add pointless, possibly dangerous but surely "incorrectly generalized" information,
when just leaving that bit away makes it a much more usefull post?

And LiIon do not just come in pouches!
(yet you just said so)
I have tripple A LiIon and 18650s and LiPos in pouches now what?

'sid
Sorry Alex, I NOT tryin' to get you "all riled up" (seems like I do that a lot)

...I figured the chart('s) would help
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:59 PM
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Old 02-28-2020, 08:23 AM
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I cleaned 'er up for ya'all
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Old 02-28-2020, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post
I cleaned 'er up for ya'all
You know what they say "No good deed goes unpunished"

Hopefully you keep posting, as you provide very good content
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Old 03-01-2020, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan View Post
You know what they say "No good deed goes unpunished"

Hopefully you keep posting, as you provide very good content
Yup,
...just tryin' to help

Thanks, I don't give up easily

---------- Post added at 09:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
and again.. that's INCORRECT!

LiIon Cells... you do the same fricking error over and over and over again!

LiIon cells are NOT LiIon cells!!!

'sid
Quite often your reply's are not "crystal clear" to me
(some almost seem like riddles, that I have to figure out)(I think I've mentioned that before)
...but, now I understand, "LiIon cells are NOT LiIon cells!!!" means (=) companies/manufacturers put many different Lithium Ion chemistry types in the same packaging.

No wonder DIY folks are having such a hard time using lithium batteries.

You, of all people should know, I was NOT tryin' to post BAD info or "kablam anyone into the hospital".

My intentions are the exact opposite. I want to learn more & "spread the word" about safely using lithium batteries to power our karts.

Ok so, lets dig deeper into how I got these "misconceptions"?

When researching lithium batteries, it seemed like the automotive "pouch" cells (Chevy Volt & Nissan Leaf) were constructed with Lithium Maganese chemistry. They both have the same 3.75V (nominal).
& most of the lithium packs available on Amazon/eBay seemed to be constructed with 18650 Lithium Polymer cells with 3.2V (nominal) voltage.

Now, I (& hopefully the rest of the forum) understand, there's a lot more to the situation.
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Old 03-02-2020, 08:47 AM
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*The only thread on the forum with a Parental Advisory Warning*

I still think it's important to expand upon this discussion

So, lets begin with some (hopefully accurate?) basic info from Battery University

"Confusion with Voltages
A battery is an electrochemical device that produces a voltage potential when placing metals of different affinities into an acid solution (electrolyte). The open circuit voltage (OCV) that develops as part of an electrochemical reaction varies with the metals and electrolyte used.

Applying a charge or discharge places the battery into the closed circuit voltage (CCV) condition. Charging raises the voltage and discharging lowers it, simulating a rubber band effect. The voltage behavior under a load and charge is governed by the current flow and the internal battery resistance. A low resistance produces low fluctuation under load or charge; a high resistance causes the voltage to swing excessively. Charging and discharging agitates the battery; full voltage stabilization takes up to 24 hours. Temperature also plays a role; a cold temperature lowers the voltage and heat raises it.

Manufacturers rate a battery by assigning a nominal voltage, and with a few exceptions, these voltages follow an agreed convention. Here are the nominal voltages of the most common batteries in brief.


Lead Acid

The nominal voltage of lead acid is 2 volts per cell, however when measuring the open circuit voltage, the OCV of a charged and rested battery should be 2.1V/cell. Keeping lead acid much below 2.1V/cell will cause the buildup of sulfation. While on float charge, lead acid measures about 2.25V/cell, higher during normal charge.


Nickel-based

In consumer applications, NiCd and NiMH are rated at 1.20V/cell; industrial, aviation and military batteries adhere to the original 1.25V. There is no difference between the 1.20V and 1.25V cell; the marking is simply preference.


Lithium-ion

The nominal voltage of lithium-ion is 3.60V/cell. Some cell manufacturers mark their Li-ion as 3.70V/cell or higher. This offers a marketing advantage because the higher voltage boosts the watt-hours on paper (voltage multiplied by current equals watts). The 3.70V/cell rating also creates unfamiliar references of 11.1V and 14.8V when connecting three and four cells in series rather than the more familiar 10.80V and 14.40V respectively. Equipment manufacturers adhere to the nominal cell voltage of 3.60V for most Li-ion systems as a power source.

How did this higher voltage creep in? The nominal voltage is a function of anode and cathode materials, as well as impedance. Voltage calculations include measuring the mid-way point from a full-charge of 4.20V/cell to the 3.0V/cell cutoff with a 0.5C load. For Li-cobalt the mid-way point is about 3.60V. The same scan done on Li-manganese with a lower internal resistance gives an average voltage of about 3.70V. It should be noted that the higher voltage is often set arbitrarily and does not affect the operation of portable devices or the setting of the chargers. But there are exceptions.

Some Li-ion batteries with LCO architecture feature a surface coating and electrolyte additives that increase the nominal cell voltage and permit higher charge voltages. To get the full capacity, the charge cut-off voltage for these batteries must be set accordingly.

Battery users want to know if Li-ion cells with higher charge voltages compromise longevity and safety. There is limited information available but what is known is that, yes, these batteries have a shorter cycle life than a regular Li-ion; the calendar life can also be less. Since these batteries are mostly used in consumer products, the longevity can be harmonized with obsolescence, making a shorter battery life acceptable. The benefit is longer a runtime because of the gained Wh (Ah x V). All cells must meet regulatory standards and are safe.

The phosphate-based lithium-ion has a nominal cell voltage of 3.20V and 3.30V; lithium-titanate is 2.40V. This voltage difference makes these chemistries incompatible with regular Li-ion in terms of cell count and charging algorithm."
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._with_voltages
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