Victa Carby choice

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MrS

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Hi there karters,

This is my first post. Just joined recently.
I have been building a kart with my students from a Victa VC160 mower that came my way.

Its pretty much done and have had a few runs. I have read about mikuni carbs and was wondering if anyone has DETAILS of fitting one to one of these 2 stroke 160cc engines.

I have the G3 which is ok but has a governer and is only really for the mundane job of mowing obviously.

Also does anyone have experience/recommendation with the expansion chamber (exhaust) design software that is offered on the net ?

http://www.victaproject.blogspot.com/
 

sideways

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Hi there karters,

This is my first post. Just joined recently.
I have been building a kart with my students from a Victa VC160 mower that came my way.

Its pretty much done and have had a few runs. I have read about mikuni carbs and was wondering if anyone has DETAILS of fitting one to one of these 2 stroke 160cc engines.

I have the G3 which is ok but has a governer and is only really for the mundane job of mowing obviously.

Also does anyone have experience/recommendation with the expansion chamber (exhaust) design software that is offered on the net ?

http://www.victaproject.blogspot.com/

To fit a Mikuni carb you make a flanged adapter, break or cut the part that the carb mounts on now and bolt the adapter to the flange you have now created on the barrel. Or you could braze an adapter on. Make the inlet port as large as you can don't change hight of the port though, there's nothing to be gained by doing so, not on a Victa of this caliber anyway.

The G3s governor is inoperable when the carb is turned 90*, it looks like you've removed it anyway. Horizontal shaft Victas had a special throttle butterfly that meant the throttle could only be opened about a third of the way, that seriously limited power though. Yours isn't one of those carbies anyway.

As for expansion chambers, here's a write up I did on how to design a very simple one.

Oscaryu1, I hope you don't mind if I write a bit about expansion pipes?

Okay, to start off, I just want want to kill the common misconception that back pressure makes 2 strokes go faster, it doesn't, in fact back pressure with give you less power (but slightly better economy), however, back pressure can help an expansion chamber work a bit better but back pressure by itself is a no no. Expansion chambers work by rebounding the pressure from an exhaust pulse back to the exhaust port which (at the right rpm) will push the air fuel mixture that has leaked out the exhaust port back in thus "supercharging" the engine. (Well, its a lot more complicated than that but hey, I'm trying to make it a bit simple here)

This gif shows this well.



A break down of the components of an expansion chamber.



Header.

This is the first part of the chamber that connects to the exhaust port. Usually a strait pipe or slightly conical (2 or 3 degree taper being larger where it connects to the diffuser). The headers cross sectional diameter can be anywhere can be anywhere from the same to 150% that of the exhaust port. About 115% is best for max power at max rpm. Its length should be 6-8 times its diameter for max power at max revs, 11 or 12 for a broader but less powerful power band.

Diffuser or Divergent cone

Probably the most important part, this part creates a vacuum pulse that sucks the air fuel mixture through the transfer ports which helps massively with power. This part also focuses the rebounding pressure wave to push the the air fuel back into the chamber. The angle of the cone is usually between 7 and 11 degrees. A steeper angle will make for a shorter but harder hitting powerband and vice versa for a shallower angle. The area of the circle at the mid section should be 6.25 times that of that at the header end. There are also 2 and 3 stage diffusers which are made up of several cones with short, stepper angled cones at the mid section end and shallower angles ones at the header end.

Mid section or belly

Quite simply, a shorter belly will give you a narrower power band with more power at high rpm. Longer will give you a longer but less powerful power band. (Seeing a theme yet?)

Baffle or convergent cone

Obviously has the role of rebounding the pressure wave. The angles are usually between 14 and 21 degrees, steeper angle equals more power at higher rpm on a short power band, the opposite is also true.

Stinger

The end piece, it's diameter should be 0.58-0.62 times the diameter of the header, the smaller diameter will hold more pressure in the pipe and because waves will travel better in a pressurised environment this makes the pipe work better. How ever, this holds more heat in the pipe and engine, thus making the power band occur at higher rpm.


Basically, a longer expansion chamber with lass aggressive angles will give you a lower, longer and softer hitting power band and a short pipe with aggressive angles will give you short, hard hitting power band at high rpms.

Heat

The heat contained in the pipe affects where the power band hits and how long for greatly. Quite simply colder pipe will move the power band lower and make it occur for longer. Hotter will move it up and also extend it a little. The later 2 stroke GP bikes had water or water and alcohol injection into the expansion chamber to cool it down, this could extend the power band by as much as 2000rpm downwards from its normally occurring rpm, a huge boost in usable power obviously. Expansion chambers can be heat wrapped to extend the power band upwards slightly.

To properly design an expansion chamber you need to use super complex mathematics which I have not included here for reasons of simplicity (this is the "Basic 2 Stroke Performance Enhancements" thread after all). You could build a chamber under the dimension limitations mentioned above and it would most likely provide an increase in power but there are many other things to take into consideration to make a pipe work the best it can. I would suggest downloading a computer program that designs a pipe for you, even though they all seem to miss out on many major variables they will provide the dimensions of a pipe for your engine that will almost certainly work very well.

A professionally designed and constructed expansion chamber can give as much as a 50%+ power gian.

(Sorry for my crap grammar :oops:)

Thanks

Hayden

For much more detail (and much better performance) design one using the information here.

I haven't searched for a while but as for as I know, there are no free expansion pipe design programs, there used too be but now you have to pay for those. :( All the ones I've seen only calculate a strait pipe (ie, one with no bends in it) which is a bit of a pain. You can turn the barrel 180* (so the carby is at the front and exhaust post at the back) with no problems at all, that might help in fitting the pipe.

BTW, get rid of the air filter set up, it's the most restrictive thing on a Victa! Take the little air filter out of the housing, throw the housing and the pipe away, cut the little plastic mounting bit off the filter, then it can be cable tied (or if you feel like being fancy, hose clamped) to the neck of the G3 like so. Victas are jetted a bit rich from the factory so you don't have to worry about that either. :)



Very, very cool project mate. :thumbsup:

Thanks

Hayden

EDIT: A Victa is more like 5HP at a rather unusual 4000RPM, in my experience a standard G3 carbed Victa will beat a both a GX160 and 5HP Briggs powered kart in a race, because of their awesome low down torque and higher revs.
 

MrS

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Carby choice

Thanks Sideways,
I will leave the exhaust side of it till later then. I have a new victa muffler on their now. It was a very clean (low miles ? ) mower showing little signs of dirt or wear when we pulled it down.

A neighbour runs a mower repairs and we cleaned and refitted it and it runs beautifully. the governer is still intact when you look thru the carby the butterfly fully opens so i'll just leave that tag device for now (don't know what it is meant to do) the carby is essentially in the same plane as it would have been as a mower.

Anywho... My mower guy just passed me an old Victa carby, round slide gate type (mikuni like) that was off the early 125 it looks great and is a clear path when open. I am guessing that the jetting will still be about right ?

The motor is just stock but sounds quite sweet when its on song
(in a mower sort of way..)

Any experience with this earlier carby ? Any value in a slight head shave ?

Thanks,

David

Did I see a pic of a Victa & g3 in your reply...can't fnd it now ?
 

jman231994

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Sorry to be a bit off topic but how much was the postage from azusa. I've had my poor little vc160 sitting there waiting for some more parts to make it into a beast of a kart for a while now haha. Parts are so expensive in Australia :(
 

MrS

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postage

It was expensive...
The larger and heavier the parts the worse it got.
I kept the parts to a min. As the freight doubled the cost or more in some scenarios.

If you go on to the Us postal service site you can do an estimate scenario. These seemed about right and it is who Azusa uses.
Incidentally they don't do credit card. You have to do an international money transfer and this costs about $30-$40 at each end.. yep,nasty. so try and order once only.

regards...
 

sideways

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Thanks Sideways,
I will leave the exhaust side of it till later then. I have a new victa muffler on their now. It was a very clean (low miles ? ) mower showing little signs of dirt or wear when we pulled it down.

A neighbour runs a mower repairs and we cleaned and refitted it and it runs beautifully. the governer is still intact when you look thru the carby the butterfly fully opens so i'll just leave that tag device for now (don't know what it is meant to do) the carby is essentially in the same plane as it would have been as a mower.

Anywho... My mower guy just passed me an old Victa carby, round slide gate type (mikuni like) that was off the early 125 it looks great and is a clear path when open. I am guessing that the jetting will still be about right ?

The motor is just stock but sounds quite sweet when its on song
(in a mower sort of way..)

Any experience with this earlier carby ? Any value in a slight head shave ?

Thanks,

David

Did I see a pic of a Victa & g3 in your reply...can't fnd it now ?

Victa mufflers are pretty good, I imagine they flow pretty well, don't do much much to quieten the thing though! I made a VERY quiet one by stuffing a baffled(rare) muffler with the mesh stuff the others have. On mine I just spun the barrel around so the exhaust port is pointing backwards and I don't run any kind of exhaust, just an open port. Tis quite loud. :devil2:

By turning the carb 90* you have made the governor ineffective. That flap where the throttle connects uses air pressure created by the fan to act as a governor. The only kind of governor that your Victa has now is the one built into the ignition system, that kicks in at about 5000-6000rpm. I can tell you how to get around that if you want.

That slide carby (3Q) is an improvement on the G3, it's still quite small though, no where near the potential of a enlarged inlet port and a mikuni. 3Qs are super rare, nice find! :thumbsup:

Shaving the head... Go for it, the corrected compression ratio on a Victa is really low, they run on just about anything though. Nothing to be lost by shaving a few mm off. I've got one that I shaved (with a file :wai:) I basically just took it as far as I could with out upsetting the decompresser, never fitted it to an engine though. Speaking of the decomp(the UFO shaped thing on the head), there's no point in removing it unless it's broken, in which case a spark plug will fit in its place but have fun trying to start the bastard, you will break pull starter cords or your arm. I found my Victa was happier when I lapped the decomp valve which might be worth doing if you're taking it apart.

Victas can sound pretty **** nice, my one with just on open port doesn't sound that great, just real loud, a nice strait pipe or megaphone makes them sing though. :cool: They sound much better with out the standard muffler.

Thanks

Hayden
 

Cam

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Speaking of the decomp(the UFO shaped thing on the head), there's no point in removing it unless it's broken, in which case a spark plug will fit in its place but have fun trying to start the bastard, you will break pull starter cords or your arm. I found my Victa was happier when I lapped the decomp valve which might be worth doing if you're taking it apart.

Yeah if you remove that decomp it tends to rip the skin off between your fingers, they have a mean backfire
 

sideways

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Yeah if you remove that decomp it tends to rip the skin off between your fingers, they have a mean backfire

Yep, bloody hurts when they "bite", the worst one I ever got was from a Power Torque that hit a rock and spun the flywheel around, I gave it a big yank on the cord and it just about broke my fingers, couldn't use that hand for a few hours.

Bloody Power Torques. :roflol:
 

MrS

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victa test

I ran the Victa in free air today and put my electronic timing device on it. As Sideways says the revs improved with the snorkel removed. It went from 4200rpm to 5700 with no filter/tube.

So I'll be getting something just hooked onto the carby directly and picking up speed on the road/track.

The Q3 was not a success...yet. Despite a good clean and reassembly it isn't picking up fuel from the bowl through the quite large jet. It has a little multi layer meshy filter in the bowl that seems soldered in place and it must be full of rubbish i guess ?

Any ideas ? This little carby looks great though and seems to have a nicer actuation than the G3.
 

sexyvicta

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how clogged up is your air filter? maybe your snorkel is partialy blocked or crimped?

i dont see how you would gain that much rpm by not running the snorkel, they dont look that restrictive to me... you would gain heaps of throttle response without it though

may have found an early full crank victa to play with so i will be able to test this out for myself soon haha
 

sideways

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Then something is seriously wrong.

An engine this size can't really breath through a 12mm hole, the worlds most restrictive air box and 1.5m of convoluted tubing. Victa intakes are crap as far as performance is concerned. Nothing is worse. It's no wander Victas run quite rich from the factory, over time they've made the intakes worse and worse and don't seem to have compensated for it.

shame i have 8 power torques in my shed now:D

Heheh, that's a few! 8 Victa powered go kart anyone? :roflol: I've got 3 of them. I'm modifying one to see how far I can push it before it blows up. :arf:

MrS: check the slide needle isn't sitting too far down and blocking the jet and just generally give it the best clean you can. You could drill a hole through that mesh or get some heat on it and melt the solder.

Thanks

Hayden
 

sexyvicta

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yeh i hate victa snorkels aye. Pretty much every powertorque i've pulled open has had grass clippings in the crankcase. The snorkels are good when brand new but there are too many places where they develop leaks and you never notice until its too late. Would rather they just used a normal airfilter setup like most other engines. In saying that i've never killed a powertorque, i've always pulled them apart to refresh way before i probably need to.

be careful with reving the power torque too high lol. I didn't belive you when you told me not to use one in a bike/gokart so i asked the old man at the mower shop and he said its possible for the piston to fly out of the engine and that i would kill myself if i tried to run one at high rpm for very long haha

dunno if thats actualy ever happened he may be full of ****

over time they've made the intakes worse and worse and don't seem to have compensated for it.

there are 4 or 5 different main jets available. I run 4 ring which is the leanest. Dunno if these are the same as the jets on older carbs tho
 

MrS

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Q3 test

Alright,

Well the old Q3 slide type carby is now clean. It had a blocked jet and was a mess. Once I got the mesh filter off and we got the nut and jet out it was plain sailing. (thankyou my local mower-man friend)

The Venturi size is the same as in the G3 and I will fit and run it shortly. At this point I will repeat the filter / no-filter test with the electronic tacho and video it to provide the (extraordinary evidence) that some require.

The tube was not blocked (and shortened compared to the mower) and the filter is like new.

I will post pics and video soon but don't see what all the fuss is about. Sideways suggested that this was the case and my little test agreed. It is probably unusual though. I have had cars that I have changed filters etc. on and it really hasn't done much.

I will make a blog post about it shortly.
http://www.victaproject.blogspot.com/
 

sexyvicta

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cool as.

Do you mind asking your local mower man how much for a new powertorque short block next time you're at his shop?

they fairly pricy over here. I have family in sydney so yeh if its cheap ill get them to go grab me one

edit: i've tried google/ ausi ebay and cant find anybody with the price online. Is around 400 over here
 

MrS

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I'm not sure exactly what a powertorque is ? If thats the half crank one then its probably a cheap/scrap secondhand option from my guy. However I have seen some good secondhand full crank 160cc like mine going for under 100 dollars i think.

I have posted the video on the blog and youtube now... All welcome to check it out.
It didn't run as sweetly as the G3 but after running for a while on and off actually went harder at 6400-6500 rpm very steady unlike the post on youtube.

I will make another video with axle hooked up soon.
http://www.victaproject.blogspot.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saBrb3ggkyU
 

sexyvicta

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yes the powertorque is the half crank from mid '80s onwards. I have heaps of engines but i want a brand new short block. Most mower shops will have a couple in their parts inventory/will know how much to order from victa. It works out similar/cheaper than a rebore + oversize piston + rings + new conrod + new crankshaft + bearings etc.
 
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