Torque converter on predator 212

Joe kart

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Recently bought a manco rattler lxt single seater. Has a predator 212 non hemi with a header, genuine mikuni vm222 with intake and air filter, and governor removed. Kart has 22×11×10 tires on it. Having issues with torque converter. It's a 30 series. Believe that the tc is bad. When I got the kart the guy I bought it from said it was eating belts. I noticed the pulleys weren't aligned. So I shimed the driver pulley to line it up with the driven. One aligned i Installed a new belt. I measured pulley and distance previously before ordering new belts. Belt should be correct size. 203589A. After installing new belt i Started it up. The kart tried to take off at idle. Lowered idle. But Shortly after tc started smoking and chewed up the belt. Thinking the clutch is bad. Looking to get a new torque converter. Any and all suggestions and recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Also plan to upgrade to stage 2 very soon. Another thing is the kart will be carrying loads of 250lbs or so plus kart itself. from what I have read and heard I am getting mixed reviews on what I can and can't put on the predator 212 for a tc. Some say I can only use a 20 or 30 series. Others claim the 44 series will fit and work. As it has a 3/4 shaft. Willing to spend the money for the right set up that will work for this application. Again thank you in advance for any help and suggestions.
 
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RLS_Underground

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Recently bought a manco rattler lxt single seater. Has a predator 212 non hemi with a header, genuine mikuni vm222 with intake and air filter, and governor removed. Kart has 22×11×10 tires on it. Having issues with torque converter. It's a 30 series. Believe that the tc is bad. When I got the kart the guy I bought it from said it was eating belts. I noticed the pulleys weren't aligned. So I shimed the driver pulley to line it up with the driven. One aligned i Installed a new belt. I measured pulley and distance previously before ordering new belts. Belt should be correct size. 203589A. After installing new belt i Started it up. The kart tried to take off at idle. Lowered idle. But Shortly after tc started smoking and chewed up the belt. Thinking the clutch is bad. Looking to get a new torque converter. Any and all suggestions and recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Also plan to upgrade to stage 2 very soon. Another thing is the kart will be carrying loads of 250lbs or so plus kart itself. from what I have read and heard I am getting mixed reviews on what I can and can't put on the predator 212 for a tc. Some say I can only use a 20 or 30 series. Others claim the 44 series will fit and work. As it has a 3/4 shaft. Willing to spend the money for the right set up that will work for this application. Again thank you in advance for any help and suggestions.
Remove the driver (clutch) off, clean it inside and out, lubricate it with graphite.

Remove the shaft nut and circlip from the driven (beware of potential spring ejection), pull the hub and spring, clean it, and reassemble with a little graphite on only the slider shim from the outer sheave.

One main focus should be any burned on belt debris because this likes to heat up and get sticky thus causing new belts to snag up.

Also if you have the stock Red spring on there, it is most probable that you're putting enough power through it (or are under geared enough) that the belt is getting pulled all the way down into the rivets of the fixed driven sheave... I HAVE BEEN THERE DONE THAT MYSELF. You can either add a 4th hole to max the resistance out on the spring, or upgrade to a green one (yellow is going to be way too stiff and require a hole drilled to weaken its resistance)
 

RLS_Underground

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FWIW: the Comets and Comet clones don't exactly go bad, and what wear they do achieve takes a long time running... far more common for them to get dirty or run dry and act up than to eat away the zinc fly weights.
The only thing prone to rapid wear is the bronze shaft bushing on the driver which just acts as an idler to keep the rotating shaft from chewing up the belt when disengaged

A 30 series it plenty enough for a stock ish 6-7hp 212... my mildly built 208 puts out around 10ish has a 30 series on it.

40 series requires a 1" PTO so to even put one on your engine (or mine) would require a ¾-1" keyed PTO shim sleeve.... Not exactly worth the trouble tbh.
 

Joe kart

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I believe it is the red spring. So I will do as you said and try that out. Awesome. Thank you for the response. I will return and let you know what happens when complete. May be a few days as I go back to work tomorrow and won't have much time for it until later I'm the week. But I will and reply. If all else fails and I do need a new converter. What would you recommend I do/ get. Money isn't a issue if it's for a good tc.
Remove the driver (clutch) off, clean it inside and out, lubricate it with graphite.

Remove the shaft nut and circlip from the driven (beware of potential spring ejection), pull the hub and spring, clean it, and reassemble with a little graphite on only the slider shim from the outer sheave.

One main focus should be any burned on belt debris because this likes to heat up and get sticky thus causing new belts to snag up.

Also if you have the stock Red spring on there, it is most probable that you're putting enough power through it (or are under geared enough) that the belt is getting pulled all the way down into the rivets of the fixed driven sheave... I HAVE BEEN THERE DONE THAT MYSELF. You can either add a 4th hole to max the resistance out on the spring, or upgrade to a green one (yellow is going to be way too stiff and require a hole drilled to weaken its resistance)
 

Joe kart

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FWIW: the Comets and Comet clones don't exactly go bad, and what wear they do achieve takes a long time running... far more common for them to get dirty or run dry and act up than to eat away the zinc fly weights.
The only thing prone to rapid wear is the bronze shaft bushing on the driver which just acts as an idler to keep the rotating shaft from chewing up the belt when disengaged

A 30 series it plenty enough for a stock ish 6-7hp 212... my mildly built 208 puts out around 10ish has a 30 series on it.

40 series requires a 1" PTO so to even put one on your engine (or mine) would require a ¾-1" keyed PTO shim sleeve.... Not exactly worth the trouble tbh.
Are the 40 and the 44 series the same? I thought I read on gokartsupply that the 44 has a 3/4 version pulley. I don't know I'm genuinely asking. I do plan to go stage 2 soon. The 30 series should still be plenty for this correct? Which would you recommend? The original comet?
 

RLS_Underground

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I believe it is the red spring. So I will do as you said and try that out. Awesome. Thank you for the response. I will return and let you know what happens when complete. May be a few days as I go back to work tomorrow and won't have much time for it until later I'm the week. But I will and reply. If all else fails and I do need a new converter. What would you recommend I do/ get. Money isn't a issue if it's for a good tc.
Well fair warning, if you don't have a high quality set of snap ring pliars... don't even mess with it till you do.

Also, taking the driven apart is far easier than spinning it back together even with that weak red spring because you have to twist, push, and set the clip and it's more than a hanful..

I find the easiest method is doing it with it on the shaft so it can't freezing, and it frees up a hand for tools... I've also used snug but no cranked down vise grips butted against the driver as leverage and to serve as an anti rotation method so that I could focus more on getting the clip on and less on what's spinning where
 

RLS_Underground

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Are the 40 and the 44 series the same? I thought I read on gokartsupply that the 44 has a 3/4 version pulley. I don't know I'm genuinely asking. I do plan to go stage 2 soon. The 30 series should still be plenty for this correct? Which would you recommend? The original comet?
My 208 is putting down around 10hp (conservative estimate) from its base listed 7hp the only significant difference between the 40 and the 30 series in design terms is the pulleys.

They are symmetrical instead of asymmetrical, and the driver is a different design... buy it's the same exact back plate and ⅝-15mm stepped driven shaft spindle

Not exactly familiar with the 44, but I can't say I've seen a 40 for a 3/4" PTO.

As far as the 30 series go, there's enough garter spring and driven spring options to run it on a 15hp engine (maybe even bigger) and get away with it safely

they lowball the tolerance and oower rating so they don't get sued or held legally liable if someone kills themselves by sticking it on a 20hp engine... without upgrading all the springs that would be beyond unsafe. The default springs are good up to around 12hp although they say 8hp for their own liability protection
 
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RLS_Underground

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What is your final drive gearing and tire size? That matters way more than a lot of rookies think.

My final drive is 3.6:1 (10>36) but I'm also sitting on 63-559 (26×2.50) tires, so it rips despite being a little bit over geared in that combination
 

Joe kart

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Well fair warning, if you don't have a high quality set of snap ring pliars... don't even mess with it till you do.

Also, taking the driven apart is far easier than spinning it back together even with that weak red spring because you have to twist, push, and set the clip and it's more than a hanful..

I find the easiest method is doing it with it on the shaft so it can't freezing, and it frees up a hand for tools... I've also used snug but no cranked down vise grips butted against the driver as leverage and to serve as an anti rotation method so that I could focus more on getting the clip on and less on what's spinning where
I have watched a few videos on it. Will definitely watch more before and while doing it. Just ordered the green spring. Will do that this week.
 

Joe kart

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My 208 is putting down around 10hp (conservative estimate) from its base listed 7hp the only significant difference between the 40 and the 30 series in design terms is the pulleys.

They are symmetrical instead of asymmetrical, and the driver is a different design... buy it's the same exact back plate and ⅝-15mm stepped driven shaft spindle

Not exactly familiar with the 44, but I can't say I've seen a 40 for a 3/4" PTO.

As far as the 30 series go, there's enough garter spring and driven spring options to run it on a 15hp engine (maybe even bigger) and get away with it safely

they lowball the tolerance and oower rating so they don't get sued or held legally liable if someone kills themselves by sticking it on a 20hp engine... without upgrading all the springs that would be beyond unsafe. The default springs are good up to around 12hp although they say 8hp for their own liability protection
I got this off of gokartsupply
..."The 44 Series Driver Clutch is available for 3/4" crankshafts with a 3/16" keyway and 1" crankshafts with a 1/4" keyway. The Driver Clutch drives the system. The Driven Pulley mounts on a keyed, secondary shaft, usually a keyed Jackshaft or Differential. Driven Pulleys are available in 5/8", 3/4" and 7/8" bore"....

Says it should fit. But regardless. From the sounds i should be good with the 30 series. Will that hold the weight I'm throwing at it, the Kart plus close to 300lbs?
 

Joe kart

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What is your final drive gearing and tire size? That matters way more than a lot of rookies think.

My final drive is 3.6:1 (10>36) but I'm also sitting on 63-559 (26×2.50) tires, so it rips despite being a little bit over geared in that combination
This is where i was thinking might be an issue when it first happened. My tires are 22×11x10. Good size tire. I'm not 100% on the gearing. I didn't install it and not 100%. Checking teeth on sprockets now.
 

RLS_Underground

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This is where i was thinking might be an issue when it first happened. My tires are 22×11x10. Good size tire. I'm not 100% on the gearing. I didn't install it and not 100%. Checking teeth on sprockets now.
22×11×10??

got pics of this weirdness?

Many 30 series come with a 10T #41 and a 12T #35 final sprocket but figuring out the final ratio is as simple as count at the wheel then divide by the number of teeth turning it.
 

Joe kart

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22×11×10??

got pics of this weirdness?

Many 30 series come with a 10T #41 and a 12T #35 final sprocket but figuring out the final ratio is as simple as count at the wheel then divide by the number of teeth turning it.
 

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Joe kart

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54 teeth on axle sprocket. 10 on small driver. Number 40 chain.
22×11×10??

got pics of this weirdness?

Many 30 series come with a 10T #41 and a 12T #35 final sprocket but figuring out the final ratio is as simple as count at the wheel then divide by the number of teeth turning it.
 

RLS_Underground

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54 teeth on axle sprocket. 10 on small driver. Number 40 chain.
So 5.4:1 for that tire size that seems about right, you definitely wouldn't want a 60T, and a 48 might work but since you plan for upgrades it would be better to wait and see... maybe set up a go pro or any type of half decent recording method to monitor the TC directly while you go hammer on it. Then you'll be able to see exactly what's eating up the belt in a real time playback
 

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It's obvious when you can actually see it what's eating the belt, as of right now due to the description I'm most suspicious of a buildup of burnt belt smears and dirty parts in need of lube.

You can probably find the recommended service schedule and procedure info on any of a fistful of reputable sites, probably even this one by smacking the search bar... or you could wait for Denny or Pancho to chime in with anything I may have missed
 

Joe kart

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Yeah I am reading up and getting more familiar with the assembly. I will tear down and clean. Ordered a new green spring for driven pulley. Also a new brass bushing for driver. Got some comet dry lube too. I will clean it up and reassemble. Go from there. Thank you. I appreciate your time and knowledge.
It's obvious when you can actually see it what's eating the belt, as of right now due to the description I'm most suspicious of a buildup of burnt belt smears and dirty parts in need of lube.

You can probably find the recommended service schedule and procedure info on any of a fistful of reputable sites, probably even this one by smacking the search bar... or you could wait for Denny or Pancho to chime in with anything I may have missed
 

panchothedog

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Wrong on the sprocket Mate. With 22" tall rear tires you are going to want a
60 tooth. The 10 x 60 combo works fine even with 18" and 19" tires . I have that
on 4 different karts running everything from stock 196 cc clone up to a couple
of 212 predators built very substantially. Most of the older karts even from the
factory with that gearing.
 

Denny

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If you use anything smaller than a 60 tooth axle sprocket you will just smoke belts. A 30 series should hold up just fine as long as you use Genuine Comet belts. You need to upgrade to the 40 series with the big blocks because the torque can overpower the grip of the belt due to the angles of the shieves.
 
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