DMCdesign
Master Apprentice
lets have a short debate on go kart build materials. Let me begin with a few words- steel vs. Aluminium vs. Carbon fiber- which will win?
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spill the beans!- go kart build materials
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rocketkart
Active member
Carbon fiber
mckutzy
Well-known member
Steel, It doesnt need any other special tools to work with, it has been done forever(a known outcome), no real special talent to operate tools chemicals formula or other processes to assemble components or the whole machine(almost any one can weld bird $hit into a working device or machine).
Aluminum: needs spoolgun or tig to weld, could go gas welding or stick in the extreme but that even exacerbates the point(needs to know how to weld none the less, and aluminum at that)
no good mechanical fastening unless it is "engineered" part (machined somehow), or an non structural part(the skin or similar bodywork);( for the most part cant just bolt together some aluminum pipe or angle into a real workable machine,{yes they're some exceptions to the rule, but you get my point}).
Carbon fiber: Needs the special carbon fiber matting(really expensive), Needs to have good special polymers for making a good solid product(expensive again). Needs some know how to make a good piece without waste and or making an inferior designed part(Could be expensive if alot went into the making of a part but found out to be wrong overall). Most from what I hear, need an autoclave or like device to make a quality product set properly(EXPENSIVE).
Cant easily remove, replace, redesign a part of or the whole article on the fly.
Aluminum: needs spoolgun or tig to weld, could go gas welding or stick in the extreme but that even exacerbates the point(needs to know how to weld none the less, and aluminum at that)
no good mechanical fastening unless it is "engineered" part (machined somehow), or an non structural part(the skin or similar bodywork);( for the most part cant just bolt together some aluminum pipe or angle into a real workable machine,{yes they're some exceptions to the rule, but you get my point}).
Carbon fiber: Needs the special carbon fiber matting(really expensive), Needs to have good special polymers for making a good solid product(expensive again). Needs some know how to make a good piece without waste and or making an inferior designed part(Could be expensive if alot went into the making of a part but found out to be wrong overall). Most from what I hear, need an autoclave or like device to make a quality product set properly(EXPENSIVE).
Cant easily remove, replace, redesign a part of or the whole article on the fly.
OzFab
New member
As good as it is, can carbon fibre really be strong enough to have an engine, axle & other essential go kart parts attached to it? Wouldn't you still need some sort of framework?
Each of the three have their own pro's & cons: Carbon fibre is lightweight & extremely strong but very expensive &, as mentioned above, is it suitable?
Same story for aluminium, as well as the fact that you need specialist training to work with it successfully.
Steel, on the other hand, is cheap & heavy but much easier to work with...
It all comes down to budget, skills & the aim of the project...
Each of the three have their own pro's & cons: Carbon fibre is lightweight & extremely strong but very expensive &, as mentioned above, is it suitable?
Same story for aluminium, as well as the fact that you need specialist training to work with it successfully.
Steel, on the other hand, is cheap & heavy but much easier to work with...
It all comes down to budget, skills & the aim of the project...
carbon fibrer is stronger than steel with a tensile strength of 3530 N/mm²
pure Aluminium 45N/mm², and the highest in steel would be I think X2CrNiMoN25-7-4 /
Superduplex with 1000 N/mm²
so yes if you do it right, you can make a complete kart frame out of carbon fiber,
but can "you" (as in any of us) do it?
No, unless you have access to an autoclave oven the size of a gokart to burn the compounds..
and a truckload of spare money.
'sid
pure Aluminium 45N/mm², and the highest in steel would be I think X2CrNiMoN25-7-4 /
Superduplex with 1000 N/mm²
so yes if you do it right, you can make a complete kart frame out of carbon fiber,
but can "you" (as in any of us) do it?
No, unless you have access to an autoclave oven the size of a gokart to burn the compounds..
and a truckload of spare money.
'sid
mckutzy
Well-known member
Hell if one has that kind of money for a carbon gokart, Buy a Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4. Its basically all carbon fiber, and its street legal, a "super duper gokart".....
machinist@large
Active member
While getting maximum strength in carbon fiber requires a lot of special tooling, it can be worked using traditional fiberglass resins; Kevlar as well. Here's a link YouTube link for just one episode of a channel that I'm subscribed to that really helps to demystify working with this stuff.
http://youtu.be/YakJmqz-gsM
As far as the original question? Unless you're doing something really esoteric, steel is the best bang for the buck as far as ease of construction as well as overall price is concerned.
Hope this helps..... Pat
http://youtu.be/YakJmqz-gsM
As far as the original question? Unless you're doing something really esoteric, steel is the best bang for the buck as far as ease of construction as well as overall price is concerned.
Hope this helps..... Pat
mckutzy
Well-known member
If I had won the lottery, Id buy my Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4 for sure, Id also still be here building alongside y'all DIY style.
machinist@large
Active member
Isn't that one of those things that cost like $500 for an oil change, ~$5000 to $6000 for a brake job, and has the luggage space for a couple of vinyl graphics????
mckutzy
Well-known member
Im not entirely sure for a lambo, I do know that a front right brake for a Ferrari I think it was a 458 Italia, which was one of those neat-o carbon/ceramic thingamabob jobbies cost about........$4500 new......... used(previously enjoyed, gently caressed and massaged)is about half.......each rotor........ No pads/shims ect.(pads about 1600-2k) Calipers are about the same $ as rotors, front(s) more expensive than rears...
Ya a bit excessive, but hey, I might get some of those same fancy brakes for my bike aswell.. what the hey....
oh to have the luxury......
Ya a bit excessive, but hey, I might get some of those same fancy brakes for my bike aswell.. what the hey....
oh to have the luxury......
DMCdesign
Master Apprentice
we slightly ran off topic here. Building carbon fiber is easier nowadays- only the autoclave being the main problem. It can be built with fiberglass resin, vinyl clothing and clear resin. There is an article on ehow about how to do it.
OzFab
New member
Could be worse, a set of tyres for a Bugatti Veyron costs about the same as a new small car...
machinist@large
Active member
Could be worse, a set of tyres for a Bugatti Veyron costs about the same as a new small car...
The odds of me ever seeing one in my part of Michigan is so small that the dang thing might as well not exist.....Now, back to topic; in the video I linked to, Mr. Pearson is building a steel tube chassis for his V6 trans axle powered buggy. He shows along the way in the series how he uses Fiberglass, Kevlar, and Carbon Fiber for various components, such as the cockpit floor, the engine/ trans skid plate, the custom fuel tank as well as several other body parts. He also has video's showing the basics of how to make your own custom body work. The #1 reason I linked to him is because he's a die hard DYI'er that doesn't believe you need the latest, greatest workshop to have fun and do cool things.
My take on the original question? Why should you limit your self to just one type of material? Mix & match; have some fun!!!
Steel is better, and here's why; Yes carbon fiber might have a stronger tensile strength.. But if and when it does break. Carbon fiber part has to be REMADE from all new materials. While steel, you can simple un-weld the section. and re-weld a new piece, without the need to rebuild the whole thing again. I believe carbon fiber is this strong only in a directions tangential to fiber flow. In direction perpendicular [which is how a force would be applied in case of bullet impact] it is not as believable. steel would again have better quality's over carbon fiber.
some aluminum are good alternatives between carbon fiber and steel. because they can be strong, but also save weight, it's the good middle man. also the good aluminum can be heat treated and hardened.
some aluminum are good alternatives between carbon fiber and steel. because they can be strong, but also save weight, it's the good middle man. also the good aluminum can be heat treated and hardened.
machinist@large
Active member
The strength of a Carbon Fiber part is determined the way it's laid up; same goes for Kevlar and fiberglass. How the strands are orientated, how many plies, etc. Also, it CAN be repaired; the actual damage determines if you have to scrap the part.
Aluminum isn't all you seem to think it is either; the stronger grades that can be heat treated usually can not be welded. That's why jumbo jets and fishing boats built using these alloy's are of RIVETED construction. I'm not saying you couldn't build a kart out of riveted aluminum; I personally really don't feel like trying to reinvent the wheel just so I could claim I had done so.
When you look at a material, you need to understand it's strengths an weaknesses. Steel is the easiest and most cost effective, but has a lot of weight. Aluminum it lighter, but nowhere near as forgiving to work with. The composites can be fairly easy to work with, but they have quirks too, and they all cost more up front for the materials. Depending on what you are trying to do, the weight savings for the same strength may render the up front $ immaterial.
There is no hard fast rule.
KartFab
Active member
What about plastic?
Carbon nano fiber tubes in plastic (thermoplastic) are very light and strong. That's something I learned at work. We did some air monitoring for a certain client of ours while they did some sanding, grinding, and routing on this special material (non-governmental, but "classified"). To the touch it felt like slate, but it was amazingly light and tough. It is much stronger, lighter, and more durable than carbon fiber.... and cheaper to make than many of their metallic parts.... too bad if you inhale the free floating nano tubes you may experience serious health effects.... (e.g. asbestos type health effects)...... never mind, carbon nano tubes=bad idea for health reasons, but would be awesome for weight reduction.
For those of you that care and haven't fallen asleep yet, free carbon nano tubes (ones that aren't stuck to something else) are much worse than asbestos. If you take 1 gram of asbestos and 1 gram of carbon nano tubes and make a rat breathe it in, nano tubes make the health effects much more wide spread and severe. There is a correlation between the surface area of carbon nano tubes (high available surface area compared to asbestos) and the health effects of asbestos. Comparing weight to weight, asbestos is "safer", comparing surface area to surface area, they have roughly the same severity of health effects.
Carbon nano fiber tubes in plastic (thermoplastic) are very light and strong.
That's something I learned at work. We did some air monitoring for a certain client of ours while they did some sanding, grinding, and routing on this special material (non-governmental, but "classified"). To the touch it felt like slate, but it was amazingly light and tough. It is much stronger, lighter, and more durable than carbon fiber.... and cheaper to make than many of their metallic parts.... too bad if you inhale the free floating nano tubes you may experience serious health effects.... (e.g. asbestos type health effects)...... never mind, carbon nano tubes=bad idea for health reasons, but would be awesome for weight reduction. For those of you that care and haven't fallen asleep yet, free carbon nano tubes (ones that aren't stuck to something else) are much worse than asbestos. If you take 1 gram of asbestos and 1 gram of carbon nano tubes and make a rat breathe it in, nano tubes make the health effects much more wide spread and severe. There is a correlation between the surface area of carbon nano tubes (high available surface area compared to asbestos) and the health effects of asbestos. Comparing weight to weight, asbestos is "safer", comparing surface area to surface area, they have roughly the same severity of health effects.
OzFab
New member
In that case:
1. Why on earth did you bring up the subject?
2. How & why is it being used (legally speaking)?
DMCdesign
Master Apprentice
If this is the future of composite materials, people will die more by breating 'carbon nano tubes' than by smoking or air pollution
fowler
New member
Not really
Look at how many people actually died of purely asbestos damage
Not really a large amount
How many people had lung problems from asbestos + smoking + drinking + living in dirty air
A hell of a lot more
There's an area of Western Australia called Wittenoom
It is a little like the west Aussie Chernobyl
U won't find it on any maps u won't find any road signs to it
its been removed from history due to the fact it was an asbestos mining town
its also a very impressive piece of land
just google Wittenoom
they used to host a load of school camps there back in the 50s (my dad)
they had a huge asbestos pad (like u would a gravel or lime stone pad
the asbestos pad was where everyone slept
people still live out there
although on the government papers they are not residents of any town as the town "doesn't exist"
they have had no side effects of living near there
and the air quality there is far better than any city
i think its quite sad really that a wonderful area is not recognized due to a substance that the world has decided is horrible
More than likely an increase of deaths will be purely to increases of air pollution
or a slow downgrade of air guilty
asbestos did have bad side effects
which was a shame
it was an absolutely brilliant product
u only have to look at brakes
we still have some trucks cruising around with asbestos shoes
they are still going after 30+ years
they perform far better that any new product out today
and there's no way any new product will last 30 years
we get 2 at best
as far as heat absorption and fire proof not much competes
Look at how many people actually died of purely asbestos damage
Not really a large amount
How many people had lung problems from asbestos + smoking + drinking + living in dirty air
A hell of a lot more
There's an area of Western Australia called Wittenoom
It is a little like the west Aussie Chernobyl
U won't find it on any maps u won't find any road signs to it
its been removed from history due to the fact it was an asbestos mining town
its also a very impressive piece of land
just google Wittenoom
they used to host a load of school camps there back in the 50s (my dad)
they had a huge asbestos pad (like u would a gravel or lime stone pad
the asbestos pad was where everyone slept
people still live out there
although on the government papers they are not residents of any town as the town "doesn't exist"
they have had no side effects of living near there
and the air quality there is far better than any city
i think its quite sad really that a wonderful area is not recognized due to a substance that the world has decided is horrible
More than likely an increase of deaths will be purely to increases of air pollution
or a slow downgrade of air guilty
asbestos did have bad side effects
which was a shame
it was an absolutely brilliant product
u only have to look at brakes
we still have some trucks cruising around with asbestos shoes
they are still going after 30+ years
they perform far better that any new product out today
and there's no way any new product will last 30 years
we get 2 at best
as far as heat absorption and fire proof not much competes
Has anyone used steel woven cloth, kind of like steel cable, but in cloth form, on their gokarts? for like bush guards and such? Really cool stuff, considering if you bump it into something, you can just kind of "stretch" out the dent again. and you can get some stuff with wider spaces in it, to actually save on weight. I wonder if the store around her still sells the stuff, it's been at least 5 years or so I've been there.. would be a good idea... I forget what it was actually intended for. It was also a PITA to get around bends, you had to cut it and tie it together sorta, like how you put up chain link fencing.
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