Predator 212, GX200 Charging Electronics

[Lasakro]

This is an electronics continuation / summary of the thread started by bob58o named Predator Lighting coil. It is a story as one struggles through the challenges of figuring out most of the mechanics and electrical of this topic. Pics, Charts, Graphs! Great questions and conclusions. The thread slowed and then closed.



Now in find myself, after installing an electric start kit, seeking higher current output. Before the starter kit I was using a Lighting coil, bridge (full) rectifier, 0.1F 25V capacitor and 36 watt Nilight Head LED’s with a couple of watt tail LED’s. Work great for 2 years.

The following is mostly confirmed using Honda GX200 documentation found on line. My final goal is to get a 7A charging system in by maybe fall. Still have gearing to finish and new shocks taking priority before an upgrade to the 3A charge system. Almost forgot disk brake upgrade.


From common sense, and the images below, we can deduce the following:

1) Charging coils are intended to charge batteries while driving 12DC loads and are available in 1A, 3A and 7A. These are ~ twice the voltage of lighting coils to leave enough voltage after rectification.

2) Lighting coils are intended to power incandescent AC bulbs on vehicles without starters. They are available in 15W and 25W with series / parallel combinations to achieve 12V “Nominal” and 15W to 50W.

3) Charge coils use the 3 magnet flywheel, Lighting coils use the 2 magnet flywheel.


Rectification and Regulation for Charging Coils:

1A and 3A coils are single wire while the other end is connected to ground. They can only be ½ waveform rectified since the coil ground is connected to battery / regulator ground. Google Bridge Rectifier Diagram for further details.

I tried one of the common 3 wire Rectifier/Regulator on my 12V 50W lighting coil and I got unusable DC voltage.

The 7A charge coil is a different animal and this is where I’m going next. If anyone out there has tried it please let us know. Looks like a stator to me, see below. 3 of the 4 posts have windings and is ungrounded, I assume, since it has 2 wires. Not many vendors carry it and the Honda OEM is expensive. Kohler has a less expensive substitute.

From NR Racing:
Honda OEM 7A Coil $210
Kohler 7A Coil $70
Honda OEM 7A Rectifier/Regulator $131

There are substitute 7A regulators on Amazon for $45-50. These are 5 wire and a harness is included with at least one. Pinout pictured below. These bring out of the case the DC- so it can be connected directly to the battery for an accurate charge voltage. Since I chose not to use the starter kit switch panel and I didn’t install any accessory switch (key on) I’ll probably try this one without the accessory pin functional:

UPDATE 8/8/20: Regulator below won't work, 3 wire AC Input
Amazon Regulator $44

The final image is the Wiring Diagram of my Yerf Dog 3202 with P212 not using the switch panel included in the kit and 1N5408 from the key for ½ waveform rectification 3 amp output. So when I run my lights the battery doesn’t charge.

As I find anything more specific or better images from now until I install the charging upgrade I'll post here.

 

[jonlasaga]

Very cool I was actually thinking about doing this to restore headlights to my bike and maybe add a RPI gauge cluster. I like the usb power output especially. Do you have a peripheral in mind for the usb or is it just for phone charging?

 

[Lasakro]

Do you have a peripheral in mind for the usb or is it just for phone charging?

I have an older Samsung phone I use as my GPS speedometer.

 

[BigWes]

Following...

 

[Crash87]

This is some good info thanks!

 

[Lasakro]

This is the 7A wiring diagram from the Kohler Command Pro CS service manual for 4-12.75HP engines.

It's good to see that they tie the Ignition, or No Connection, pin of different aftermarket regulators to DC+. I thought about doing that but had concerns it would drain the battery if the regulator was left "on". Must not be the case.

 

[Lasakro]

7A Coil Update

The 7A Kohler Coil 1708507-S from NR Racing is installed. NR doesn't provide the Kohler Part Number until the item is in your cart which I didn't notice until after I received the coil. Probably since their $70 priced coil can be found for a lot less.

I mounted it with four M6x15mm bolts and lock washers. Magnet wire measured 1.18mm OD minus the laminate is about 18AWG.

Kohler 7A coil 1708057-S is found paired up with Regulator 10A 1740308S in the CH245, CH255, CH260 & CH270 parts diagram.

Don't expect to be charging while genitally driving your 5 year old around. I've seen a few Kohler Service Manual Troubleshooting Charging System charts and you need 3600 RPM to produced 13.7 - 14.5VDC with this setup.

I haven't fired it up yet to check voltage.

 

[bob58o]

When I was planning on using an automotive alternator on my buggy, I figured I would have to get up to 30mph before it would start charging.

 

[Wilson_Engine_Shop]

Does this mean I cant just hook up the charging coil wires straight to a battery? I want to charge the battery running my lights but I dont know anything about regulators/rectifiers

 

[Lasakro]

Does this mean I cant just hook up the charging coil wires straight to a battery? I want to charge the battery running my lights but I dont know anything about regulators/rectifiers

If your referencing to using an auto alternator, the belt design would be interesting to see, they usually have internal bridge rectifier and voltage regulator so the answer is no.

A typical coil is about 1-2 ohms. Connecting it directly to a 12v battery will usually result in something we don't like to see in electronics, smoke. Need at least one diode in there, either line, the kits have been using the 1N5408. You can get them off of Amazon.

I've given up on the 7 Amp coil idea. The 7 and 10 amp charge coils need to be used with a 2 pole-pair flywheel. That's 4 magnets on the inside and I'm not going to drop another $150 for 2-3 amps.

I'm revisiting the two 2.3 amp (18awg) coils in parallel idea but still messing around with different bridge rectifiers/regulators.

 

[Wilson_Engine_Shop]

If your referencing to using an auto alternator, the belt design would be interesting to see, they usually have internal bridge rectifier and voltage regulator so the answer is no.

A typical coil is about 1-2 ohms. Connecting it directly to a 12v battery will usually result in something we don't like to see in electronics, smoke.

I just want to run my charging coil wires to my battery. It sounds like i'll need a 4 wire regulator/rectifier to make everything play nice together

 

[Lasakro]

It sounds like i'll need a 4 wire regulator/rectifier to make everything play nice together

Not from me. The single diode method does charge the battery. My concern is that at Top Of Charge nothing is in place to bring the charge voltage down to 12.6 volts. Without it we have overheating.

So far I've wasted $30 on "common" 4 conductor (one being case ground) regulator/rectifiers which are not providing any output.

Next I need to look at the input voltage on these with both loaded and unloaded output to see whats going on. When using my meters diode check these both are giving me a 2.7v drop while my bridge rectifier is giving me a .45v drop. I need to understand why. If the input is getting loaded down then they are probably too beefy as they are rated up to 15A.

 

[Wilson_Engine_Shop]

I just looked at your first post and I have lighting coils not charging coils. I'm pretty sure I can convert the AC to DC and charge a small battery

 

[Lasakro]

This "Kohler Style" Bridge Rectifier with Regulator Works

I just looked at your first post and I have lighting coils not charging coils. I'm pretty sure I can convert the AC to DC and charge a small battery

That's okay. I finally figure out that because Honda did it that way, we don't half to. You need to figure out which lighting coil. I was just about to post this when I saw your reply this so read on my man...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Just got done testing and this combination works. With everything connected the AC input to the regulator maintained 10-25v as I found in the other thread. For some reason with the regulator output disconnected from the battery and connected to a 8 ohm resistive load I can't get any output but I'm not going to keep pandering why.

Using a 8 ohm resistive load, 1.575 amps, and my LED lights at 40w, 3.175 amps, I ran for about 10 minutes pulling 4.75 amps.

1) I started with a battery @ 12.5 v.
2) Increased RPM up to 3200-3300 charged the battery up to 12.61v and stayed there. Regulator is doing it's job.
3) Lowered RPM to idle and let the lights and resistive load drop the battery voltage to 12.4.
4) Increased RPM again to verify charging, it did. Maybe as low as 3KRPM, hard to tell. Definitely not 2500 like Bob found with the half wave without regulator.

Next step I want to try is to half my resistive load from 8 to 4 ohms. This will test it up to 6.325 amps. As for this coil they used 18 AWG magnet wire which is rated for 2.3 amps but as typical for cheep components they used 20 AWG for connecting the coils in parallel and to feed the regulator. While the 20 AWG is very short I'm going to replace it with 16 AWG, rewrap them and coat with Insulating Varnish. I'm just anal that way

So in summary this has been tested to 4.75 amps (Computed):

Flywheel V Power Equipment P212 Electric Start Kit, 2 magnets inside.
Coil Item: X98-1353 From Monster Scooter Parts $30
Amazon Cheepo Regulator for Kohler $14

 

[Lasakro]

Coil Test to 6.3 Amps- Sat.

Today I loaded my charging circuit with 4 ohm resistors in parallel with the 40W LED's which computes to ~6.3 amps @ 12.6VDC. After seeing the desirable results I swapped out my 36W Nilights for 72W ones. This will leave me at about 6 amps. I still need to put my 10 amp DVM in the circuit to measure actual current draw and find RPM charging point. We can probably push this coil to 7 Amps but unfortunately the RPM point at where the regulator will start to charge the battery will also increase as coil voltage decreases.

I'm happy with 6 amps and is about I'll need.

The chart below is from the before I swapped my lights:

 

[BruceBanner1983]

This "Kohler Style" Bridge Rectifier with Regulator Works



That's okay. I finally figure out that because Honda did it that way, we don't half to. You need to figure out which lighting coil. I was just about to post this when I saw your reply this so read on my man...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Just got done testing and this combination works. With everything connected the AC input to the regulator maintained 10-25v as I found in the other thread. For some reason with the regulator output disconnected from the battery and connected to a 8 ohm resistive load I can't get any output but I'm not going to keep pandering why.

Using a 8 ohm resistive load, 1.575 amps, and my LED lights at 40w, 3.175 amps, I ran for about 10 minutes pulling 4.75 amps.

1) I started with a battery @ 12.5 v.
2) Increased RPM up to 3200-3300 charged the battery up to 12.61v and stayed there. Regulator is doing it's job.
3) Lowered RPM to idle and let the lights and resistive load drop the battery voltage to 12.4.
4) Increased RPM again to verify charging, it did. Maybe as low as 3KRPM, hard to tell. Definitely not 2500 like Bob found with the half wave without regulator.

Next step I want to try is to half my resistive load from 8 to 4 ohms. This will test it up to 6.325 amps. As for this coil they used 18 AWG magnet wire which is rated for 2.3 amps but as typical for cheep components they used 20 AWG for connecting the coils in parallel and to feed the regulator. While the 20 AWG is very short I'm going to replace it with 16 AWG, rewrap them and coat with Insulating Varnish. I'm just anal that way

So in summary this has been tested to 4.75 amps (Computed):

Flywheel V Power Equipment P212 Electric Start Kit, 2 magnets inside.
Coil Item: X98-1353 From Monster Scooter Parts $30
Amazon Cheepo Regulator for Kohler $14

So I’m reading through this thread, and I’m trying to understand what the final setup ended up being?

 

[Denny]

He hasn’t been back in 3 years, Covid probably got him?

 

[bob58o]

I sets em up so yous can knocks em down. Once you get to the river, lower your head and drink

 

[ezcome-ezgo]

Don't drink too fast, you'll founder.

 

[Denny]

Found her where?