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Let nature take it's course

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Poboy kartman

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Thought I'd start another thread everyone can chime in on, because it's really just about opinions and how you view things.

A few years ago, I was fairly active on a snake forum. So...I've gotten into snakes...(a little)...even though I used to be deathly afraid of them, but most fears are due to ignorance, and once I educated myself on snakes...my paranoia subsided.

I have had over 20 different wild snakes of probably 10 different species since getting my wild Texas rat snake who is about 14 years old now.

So...I have two small ponds in my backyard....and sometimes they are visited by uninvited snakes. So, I mention that there are two snakes I kill on sight: blotched water snakes and yellow bellied water snakes. The blotched water snakes because they are just so hard to catch and they eat my fish. The yellow bellied because their primary diet is frogs and toads.

I get a pretty good hatch of toads in my ponds most years...and I absolutely LOVE baby toads...but that's not really it. Frogs and toads are in trouble. I know I have two different sub-species that breed in that pond, and I'm not expert enough to positively ID them, but I believe one of them is an endangered species.

But you would have thought I had assassinated Mother Teresa by the responses I got from these people.

To make a very long story a little shorter...one guy said I should let nature take it's course...So...what's your opinion? Can we just let "nature" take it's course?

BTW: There's a healthy population of yellow bellied and a booming population of blotched watersnakes in my area.

Anyway....this is not meant to be a discussion about this one paticular incident...but whether man should interfere with "nature" taking it's course and that natural selection should take care of itself. Feel free to present any animal or scenario you'd like.
 

itsid

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As simple as that: we can't!

Sure, unobserved territory untouched by humans... leave it alone.. let nature care for her own.

But such land doesn't barely exist... especially not in your backyard ;)
You have an endagered species in your yard.. well protect it as good as you can.

I'm not sure I'm personally particular fond of killing snakes tbh...
some of them are also not doing too well either and frankly it's terribly hard to decide which creature should see another day (except Mosquitos.. kill them all I say..!! :D)

So yeah, I understand your intention; and if it's helping an endangered species...

I mean frankly we have ruinied so much animal haunts, drove so many species into extinction...
just saying "let nature take it's course" is a bit ridicule.
I think helping an endangered species is a good thing, and if that means to keep it from being eaten by another species so be it.
At least for a generation or two that should be okay.

Again: if there's a different option as opposed to killing the snakes.. I'd vote for that tbh.
if not.. well shirt happens, right ;)

For millenia humans killed wolfs because they go after the sheep.. or rattle snakes because they bit cattle if that's more texan ;) and everybody was fine with that.

Same thing here, only difference it's not a financial reason you do so.

'sid
 

Poboy kartman

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To be honest...I'm not sure there's much of anywhere that man hasn't impacted. And you made the exact same point I did to this guy: "Nature CAN'T take it's course..because the interference of man has upset the "natural balance ". It took a lot of effort to re-establish the wolves in Yellowstone after being irraticated.

Another point I made was it's MY backyard...my privilage and right to control that micro ecosystem and everyone does it....otherwise our yards would be weeds and our homes totally infested by roaches and vermin.

BTW: I had previously relocated both those snakes. It took several hours a day for almost two weeks before I caught the first blotched watersnake....and I say kill all mosquitoes....(exactly what baby toads..and the fish in my ponds do)...so...I say kill those that kill your allies....

Of course....as I said...these snakes are thriving...if not...I wouldn't kill them.
 

Poboy kartman

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How I feel

Do I need to read the last part of that first post very slowly and loudly to you?

---------- Post added at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

See...I don't want to argue with ignorance....snakes are beneficial creatures.

Might as well say: "The only good bat is a dead bat"....but without them mankind would probably not exsist. But ignorance and prejudice make people afraid of them. Personally, I am elated to see one.

BTW: They really don't turn into vampires....FYI.

Also...I've been snakebitten at least 30 times...what's everyone scared of?
 

Jfive

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I am not afraid of snakes. Had friends with a red tail boa. But having visited the Everglades in Florida, one can

see what lazy snake pet owners can do to create a huge problem, when they let there snakes go they decided they

couldn't care for anymore loose in nature. Now they have a real issue there. The problem with letting nature be is

that **** bag pet owners have already made this impossible.
 

Poboy kartman

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I am not afraid of snakes. Had friends with a red tail boa. But having visited the Everglades in Florida, one can

see what lazy snake pet owners can do to create a huge problem, when they let there snakes go they decided they

couldn't care for anymore loose in nature. Now they have a real issue there. The problem with letting nature be is

that **** bag pet owners have already made this impossible.

Yes!!!! See...I only catch snakes in my backyard or neighborhood. Some people have a problem with THAT...(on snake forums) .

I have a solution for Florida's problem....(which btw, was NOT caused by pet owners...but a hurricane hitting a facility with a large population.)...anyway...PUT A BOUNTY ON THEM! !! A BIG one! You'll have rednecks from all over the country down there. And as the old saying goes: "History repeats itself." Animals hunted to extinction have been done so for economic gain.

The government is throwing huge money JUST STUDYING the problem. Throw that money at us "good ol boys"....it'll go away...

Alligators are a prehistoric creature, very hardy, pretty adaptable...but the government has to LIMIT harvest! In my neck of the woods there's a sign that prohibits "harrassing" alligators.
 

chancer

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So any topic "Should we interfere?"
The White Tail Deer population in NE. U.S. is way overpopulated. The deer destroy property and cause hundreds of fatal car accidents each year.
I am not saying hunt to extinction but in some areas it is not even a hunt, Just look Aim and shoot. The deer are not wasted either they make good Food.

Is it good to hunt to control this population? Either way the deer Die, By mans interference.
By hunting or Cars.

Also I would like Ozfab to weigh in on this topic. Not Deer but the "Australian Mouse Infestation" a few years back. I saw a documentary on it once. Interesting results.
 

OzFab

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Everything in nature has a purpose; Alex, you said

except Mosquitos.. kill them all I say..!! :D

'sid

but, if Doug was to do that, his toads wouldn't eat...

American cane toads were introduced into Australia in the 1930s to eradicate the native cane beetle, which they did but, are now listed as one of the top pests in the country, spreading from coastal northern Queensland into neighbouring states...

A few years ago, my buddy (who extensively read up on buddhism) was sitting quietly having a cigarette when he noticed a cockroach; his first instinct was to stomp on it but, then he remembered what he'd read (something along the lines of "let nature take its course") & left it alone; the roach continued on its path &, after a few feet, it was snatched up by a lizard...

As my buddy sat, with his mind blown, he considered "if I'd followed my first instinct I would've deprived the lizard of a meal"...

Crickets are annoying little creatures, correct? for a while, my son actively sought them out; why? Because he was raising scorpions & that's what scorpions eat...

So, what's my point? With knowledge comes wisdom which shows that our initial instinct is usually wrong...

Doug, I urge you to do some research, find out how endangered the toads are, someone may want to know they exist...

Also I would like Ozfab to weigh in on this topic. Not Deer but the "Australian Mouse Infestation" a few years back. I saw a documentary on it once. Interesting results.

Don't even get me started on mice, rats & rabbits; they were all introduced by the british as early as the first fleet in 1788; it's funny how anything in Australia labelled as "vermin" or "pest" isn't native...

White tail deer is one thing but, go back a few centuries & see what happened to the buffalo population; as they were a great source of meat (& there weren't many cows yet (again, introduced)), they were hunted almost to extinction; is it still illegal to hunt buffalo?
 

Poboy kartman

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Well...itsid pretty much covered that. It's not IF man needs to interfere...but already has. The natural predators of the whitetail deer...(wolves and cougars) were hunted to near extinction. They still only exsist in a small percentage of the land they used to. Bears too to a certain extent.

Wait!!! There's more! For a small fee we can double your order....oops...(got distracted) ! No..not only did we eliminate their predators...but we gave them a gravytrain of crops and gardens...and protected areas.

Texas Parks and Wildlife has controlled hunts in State Parks by lottery. I shot a doe (antlerless only hunt BTW)...that was estimated to be 6 1/2 years old by the biologist on hand....and dressed out about 65 lbs.

Even worse...is when nature does take over! Disease and starvation thins the population....not pretty...and only the coyotes and vultures eat.
 

chancer

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Ok new creature. Man screwed this one up in the first place. and now... How about the Wild Boar. Devastating all sorts of land from crops to wild areas. and hunting them does not seem to help. This Plague of Pigs spreads from Florida to Texas.
 

Poboy kartman

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Everything in nature has a purpose; Alex, you said



but, if Doug was to do that, his toads wouldn't eat...

American cane toads were introduced into Australia in the 1930s to eradicate the native cane beetle, which they did but, are now listed as one of the top pests in the country, spreading from coastal northern Queensland into neighbouring states...

A few years ago, my buddy (who extensively read up on buddhism) was sitting quietly having a cigarette when he noticed a cockroach; his first instinct was to stomp on it but, then he remembered what he'd read (something along the lines of "let nature take its course") & left it alone; the roach continued on its path &, after a few feet, it was snatched up by a lizard...

As my buddy sat, with his mind blown, he considered "if I'd followed my first instinct I would've deprived the lizard of a meal"...

Crickets are annoying little creatures, correct? for a while, my son actively sought them out; why? Because he was raising scorpions & that's what scorpions eat...

So, what's my point? With knowledge comes wisdom which shows that our initial instinct is usually wrong...

Doug, I urge you to do some research, find out how endangered the toads are, someone may want to know they exist...

If mosquitoes didn't exsist...baby toads would eat gnats. (They really don't eat THAT many mosquitoes...but mosquitoes are the most deadliest animal on the planet....) I would gladly trade the elimination of toads for the elimination of mosquitoes.

But...that's the point of this, isn't it? Either intentionally....or unintentionally, man now controls nature....and therefore decide what thrives and what doesn't.

I believe as you do....everything has a purpose in nature....and it took eons to set up a balance....but man just a short time to muck it up.

But...let's look at some of the places man hasn't yet jacked up: Galapagos. Maybe the far north...but changes in ice cap melts are affecting that ecosystem.

The toads are on the list...just not sure how to go about identifying those are the species...(they look like them to me) but the non-endangered ones look pretty close.

BTW: I almost never see a toad....except when the moon is right...in early spring...and it's going to rain. Somehow, they KNOW....I'm not talking a couple of hours...but days...(one or two)... but they are never wrong. So...what I'm saying....is when I hear the orgy going on...it always rains in a couple of days after.
 

chancer

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DDT would have wiped out Malaria 30yrs ago saving MILLIONS of Lives. But it was banned because maybe maybe it caused cancer in 2 or 3 kids! and that B.S. about Fish and Bald Eagle eggs. Was proved wrong after it was too late.
DDT will fix the worlds Mosquito problem as well as Malaria, West nile and the new ZIKA virus.
but good luck. The Media and the tree huggers will never let DDT out of the bag!
 

KartFab

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Nature takes its course whenever one does anything. We are all part of nature. Endangered species? Some are worth saving because they look "pretty", some are endangered because of man, and others just die out because they weren't adequately endowed with the right genetic makeup for their habitat.

All organisms have genetic mutations over time. If any of these mutations are expressed in a heritable trait that gives them an advantage over others, they start to become more prevalent in a certain population.

When we all started moving around in the world, we brought certain species that had excellent traits for survival (eg, produce a lot of young, eat anything -like rabbits to Australia, rats to Hawaii, zebra mussels to more freshwater lakes, random exotic 'pets' to Florida) to places that didn't have organisms that could compete with them.

Just rambling. Nature is pretty cool. Hopefully we all don't die off from some crazy virus of the future, or bake to death from climate change.
 

itsid

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Newsticker.....

Uhm.. I though you'd know that mosquito thing is a joke ..
we're unable to extinct them anyways it's just the most annoying creature I could think of...)
I still kill every mosquito I can (four today! ... as if it matters to their population ;))

So yeah.. technically it'd might not be the best idea.. I can't tell;
subjectively it still is the best idea ever :D

Now proceed with our regular program...

'sid
 

chancer

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I dont know that DDT would have wiped out Mosquitos, I am sure they have their place in the food chain of nature. But DDT would have made the malaria Scourge maintainable. Now Millions of poor people poor countries die a horrible death.
But maybe that is nature taking its course. They also say we have a "problem" with population boom of man. So Malaria and mosquitos help control the human population. Right? It is just sad because we are also the creatures with hearts, minds and sympathy towards suffering.
 

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If mosquitoes didn't exsist...baby toads would eat gnats. (They really don't eat THAT many mosquitoes...

Newsticker.....

Uhm.. I though you'd know that mosquito thing is a joke ..
we're unable to extinct them anyways it's just the most annoying creature I could think of...)
I still kill every mosquito I can (four today! ... as if it matters to their population ;))

'sid

Guys, I was merely making a point...

Hopefully we all don't die off from some crazy virus of the future

If we did, that would be nature taking its course; didn't you just say

All organisms have genetic mutations over time. If any of these mutations are expressed in a heritable trait that gives them an advantage over others, they start to become more prevalent in a certain population.

;)
 

chancer

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I have never been bit by a mosquito! I don't think there are any around here. Or I am just one of those people they don't like! Too Sweet for their taste I guess:lolgoku:
 

Poboy kartman

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Now you got me going on toads. Besides having a slightly different physical appearance, the two species have very different sounding mating calls.

Now....I only understand a little toad language...but I honestly know two things when I hear them....One is "Hey baby...come see me!" That's the long drawn out bellowing.

Then there's the other...Mep mep mep mep mep....that means: I'm a guy....get off me! Curiously, unlike humans....the females are non vocal...as far as I can tell.

Now...another curious little toad story...I caught a little toad...(about the size of a nickle) in late fall....So...I got to thinking...I never see anything that isn't much larger than this in spring...the survival rate on these little guys must be low. So I made him a home and fed him over the winter. He got pretty good sized and my daughter named him Tigger. Anyway....Saturday...we would go buy crickets and feed him. All week long...Tigger would stay buried up...Friday night...he would come out. I kid you not...

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

I dont know that DDT would have wiped out Mosquitos, I am sure they have their place in the food chain of nature. But DDT would have made the malaria Scourge maintainable. Now Millions of poor people poor countries die a horrible death.
But maybe that is nature taking its course. They also say we have a "problem" with population boom of man. So Malaria and mosquitos help control the human population. Right? It is just sad because we are also the creatures with hearts, minds and sympathy towards suffering.

I have never been bit by a mosquito! I don't think there are any around here. Or I am just one of those people they don't like! Too Sweet for their taste I guess:lolgoku:

You just stink too bad. They think you're dead. Yeah....I was waiting for this side of the argument....and you nailed it....nature is trying to balance out...but man is working hard to divert it....

Yeah!!!! Let's just do away with governments and police....and let nature take it's course. Survival of the fittest....(or sneakiest!)
 

Bbqjoe

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When I moved to the desert, I killed every rattlesnake I saw.
Shortly thereafter, I had mice and rats everywhere tearing up everything including my cars.
It was then I decided the rattlers had a job to do, and I upset the balance.

So after that, when I saw one, I would snare it, and take it somewhere away from the house.

Sometime after that, I learned secondhand, that a rattler bite, and a helicopter ride can easily set one back a 1/4 of a million bucks.

I then made another decision.
Screw rattlesnakes.
 
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