GEGcorp - Papa Bear buggy

[gegcorp2012]

<Edited Feb 5 2021 > This project started out in the 2020 Build Off contest but I asked to have it moved over here in the Projects section because I want to take my time on this build.

The new direction I am headed is to use plans and build a cross cart [the "Cheeta Buggy" by Homemade Madness], although I still plan to use a Honda Civic transmission gearbox.

Here is the link to the Cheeta Buggy series on YT:

<end of edit>

I picked up a wrecked bike last year and have kept it under wraps until today....

As of today, March 19th 2020, I am still working to finish my new shop so I can have a dedicated workspace for my motorsport builds.

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[Kartorbust]

Tarp hiding the powertrain for it or are you just using it for the picture? Either way, can't wait to see what you build. Best of luck for 2020, stay safe and healthy!

 

[gegcorp2012]

Hi @kartorbust
Thanks for getting the thread rolling.

It is wrapped up because it is still "grazing" out in the yard.

It was in a bad wreck for sure, but is supposed to run... so I pulled the tarp this afternoon and took a couple of additional pics with the front half of the quad that I hacked for the 2019 build off.

Planning a 2 seater with the Warrior front end, round frame and the motor mounted transverse to an IRS rear diff for now.

All subject to change at this point in the game.

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[landuse]

This is going to be a good build....I can see it

Whats the engine size?

 

[itsid]

suzi is going to get stripped then ...
this will going to be interesting

'sid

 

[gegcorp2012]

The donor bike is a 1990 Honda CBR 1000F with 17k miles. AKA the Hurricane. I think this one may be the sport touring edition, as it has the larger swoopy front fender and traces of a tall front fairing with at least one of the turn signals that match shape in the photo below.

The fairing and seat and tank gone, rear frame is tweaked from flipping, and (ouch!) both handlebars broken from the high speed wipe out. The instrument cluster has some damage too, it looks like someone may have already looted the small guages, leaving the damaged large ones.

Anyways, the seller was asking $400 and accepted my counter offer of $300 (because I didn't hear it run) because I brought my truck and he wanted to free up space in his garage.

So far, it is cheaper and more powerful than an industrial engine... Now to get to running again !

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[itsid]

cool..those look like the Suzuki rims.. that's why I thought it'd be one..
Anyhow,
with an engine like that you can make a nice long travel sandrail with a ton of oomph...

just make it wide enough so you don't end up with a tipping hazard..
it'd be a shame if you need to go slow round corners with that much power

'sid

 

[gegcorp2012]

You are probably right on the rims... Doing some research on the CBR, I read on wikipedia that it was Honda's first full fairing sport bike, so it seems they could have borrowed some parts from the market to try and get up into the new market quicker.

Back in my riding days, I started on a Keystone 50 (pushed it more than I rode it) and a Honda Mini-trail 50. Later, moved up to a used Honda 125, then on my own, I bought a CB 350 twin (good woo-bow sound) then 1984 Suzuki 550 ED i4 on payments and it was a blast to ride a new, safe bike. For offroad, I got a used Yamaha XT 500 thumper that I eventually flew through a tree and into the ground really ringing my bell.

I wanted a VFR next... or a v65 Magna since the v4 is my favorite Honda engine.

I eventually realized my days would be numbered fewer on a street bike so I got into auto engine swaps in the mid 80's

Anyways, the CBR is officially a pre-wrecked pile of scrap now with little book value. No need for me to wreck it again !

The NADA resell guide can help pick a fair price for a junker in fair condition, but feel free to negotiate even lower for scrap. If you shop for just the engine and harness theres extra labor involved, so the price goes up.

BTW, I will explore re-use of some of the suspension and brakes, etc.... may try a few freaky cut and paste permutations along the way so I can get it running and rolling and meet the BO completion deadline.

It will definitely be wider than a quad and I have an unlimited width ORV park within 30 minutes of the house..

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[gegcorp2012]

Fire in the hole !!
Preparing for the next stretch of rainy weather, I pulled the CBR into the shop so I could tinker with it and see if I can get it to turn over.

I had to remove some parts so I could get my powersports battery in the space available. The right muffler was gone, so I took off the remainder of the twisted, sharp metal guard.

The handlebars are a mess, but the buttons and switches seem to be ok. I had to shim behind the nub of a clutch lever because it has a start interlock switch on it.

The ignition switch was already hacked by the PO, so I got everything set and clicked through several positions and apparently one of the clicks was "Start".

https://youtu.be/Up5J1vK9Bd8

There is some dried mud in some of the small openings and hoses, so I will eventually get that cleaned up, but glad see it hit a lick on the starting fluid.

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[gegcorp2012]

Another hour or two stripping the bike. I took off most of the damaged or bent parts, but left it mobile so I can still move it.

In the process, I found the starter button is stuck "on", also the oil cooler is busted and the radiator is dry.

I took the wiring harness off and was surprised there are very few connections on the motor... just an oil sensor, the starter and generator.

I ordered a replacement oil cooler and will have to see if the radiator and fan still work so I can order thoss parts if needed, then get it running for testing purposes.

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[landuse]

Looking good!

 

[gegcorp2012]

Thanks @Landuse

Well..... the radiator is a leaker... I have the oil cooler ($18) and a radiator/fan combo on order. ($38)

Last night I brought in the front end from the donor quad.

I plan to split the quad front end right down the middle to make the front track wider... like about 50 inches or so, but last year I learned not to mess with the front until I get the rear end figured out.

I have been researching the rear end options for a few months, and will have some kind of dual arm IRS.

I was shopping for a 4.11:1 BMW LSD and actually went to the pull apart over the weekend but did not find any cars with limited slip.

After poking around some more on search engines, I think I have have a better plan now to use a Honda gearbox... made from hacking a Civic transmission. That would give me a FNR gearbox with 5 foward speeds plus reverse.

A guy on MBN (goes by arrowhead) has a thread on this and says it works great in his 'Busa powered buggy.

He runs the Civic trans in 3rd gear most of the time and shifts the bike engine as needed. A few others have built using the Civic trans as well, but I am still reading and looking for pictures of others that have that Civic setup working.




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[gegcorp2012]

Took a ride to today Marketplace ad for a deal on a Honda transmission.

The ad was a 5 speed tranny for $75, and it turns out the guy has built over 14 Civics, and had a pretty good pile of extra parts in the yard.

We talked a while and I started loading up (3) Civic DX trannys. One is a known good one - a '97 with 168k mi. that was pulled so they could swap in a lower geared EX. The second is pulled apart, has a bad first gear, but the seller is more of an engine guy and did not bother to put it back together. The thirs one *may* be OK, but was out in the yard.

Also got (2) shifter assemblys (2) clutch disks and (2) short CV axles for $100.

Something to work on during shelter in place this month.

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[gegcorp2012]

Heres the basic plan for using the Civic tranny as a FNR gearbox.

The CBR has the chain about 4.5" to the leff of center.

The belhousing will be cut so the chain will ride where it needs to be. I will have to add brackets for alignment and put some pillow blocks on either side of the input shaft because it is not designed for any side load.

Here is the overall width using two short axles. As I was trying these on for size, I found out the inner shafts are not the same length , so Im not completely sure if two short shafts will work.

Here is a comparison of the passenger and driver side CV bell.

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[gegcorp2012]

More on the rear suspension considerations. I figured I would follow through with a "modified stock" config using two of the short CV axles.

I used the VIN found on the transmission and a Honda decoder site to get the specs of the donor vehicle. The tranny is from a 97 Civic DX. The site gave me all the specs on the tranny, including gear ratios and the stock engine HP and torque.

Did some bench testing to check the max angle and radius of the CV joints. Measured 21degrees and 16".

Used an online calculator to determine the section of a circle, this tells me the chord (travel) and height for a given radius and angle.
https://planetcalc.com/1421/#

Results based on 16" radius and 42 degrees from full droop to full bump:

So it looks like I may be able to have 11.47" of travel using the short CV axles. That would be on paper, of course... but it helps to get some of this out of my head.

I was getting concerned about the specialized fabrication and high cost that I had seen for many of the "all in" motorcycle engine buggies, and do not want to go that route. Trying to keep it on the low end of cost and more off-the-shelf DIY.

I will have some fab work to use the tranny and some light machine work as well to get the input shaft stabilized and the rear wheel bearing housings done. That is bearable for now.

Found a few other cool sites for cross referencing wheel bolt patterns and backspacing at :
http://www.boltpatternfitment.com/4-100/
The 97 Civic DX has a 4x100 mm also called a 4 on 4" pattern. Looking for rims now.

Also scoped out prices for replacement Civic hubs and bearing set.

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[gegcorp2012]

The Civic hubs and bearings were delivered Friday, and I spent a few hours mulling over how to fabricate the bearing cups without visiting a machine shop or buying a lathe or other fancy tools... then decided to keep shopping.

I have been searching and reading Honda performance forums to learn about the model lines and interchangable driveline components. Also browsed a few bearing supply catalogs to compare dimensions.

Assuming I use the stock Civic 97 DX 5 speed passenger side axles, I can make changes to the outer hub as long as the axles are metric 26 splines. I'm hoping to find other hubs can be used to get different bolt patterns for wheel choices :

> Civic DX has 4 on 100mm - same as golf cart wheels but no bearing cup.
> Chevy Cobalt uses a 4 on 110 - same as many ATV wheels, has a bearing cup, but uses 33 spline axles.
> Honda Odyssey has 5 lugs with the bearing cup and larger axles, so they wont work for me.

So it appears I will be sticking with the Civic hubs and aftermarket golf kart wheels/tires. Golf karts are popular down here, so there are lots of take offs and trade up deals on wheels.

I plan to go to auto parts place(s) to do physical verification because I have seen photos and specs that dont match or not provided online.

Example: Over the weekend I found a Chevy Cobalt/Saturn Ion hub assembly on Amazon that has a spec page saying it has 26 splines but NAPA says it is 33 splines, this was confirmed by cross referencing the part number shown in one of the pictures.

Today I found bearing cups for 90-97 Accord that may fit the Civic hubs, but I could not find specs on the Acura/Accord module with the ARB513098 bearing shown in the photo, That part number did lead me to a phone number for ARB where I can call and get specs on the cone bore to compare to the Civic hub shaft OD.

Not really shop work - grinding or welding or painting, but time and effort spent on the project none the less, so thats what I have been up to for the last week or so.

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[gegcorp2012]

No thread left behind !

I got the Accord bearing cup a week ago, but have been trying to determine my next step.

Heres the scoop. The ID of the bearing is larger than the Civic hub, so I think I will have to press the bearing out of the cup and put the Civic bearing in its place.

Heres the problem:

Here is the OD measurement of the Civic bearing... its 73mm or like 73.5mm since my calipers are not that precise.

Here is the caliper showing the OD of the bearing in the Accord cup. Looks close to me, but there appears to be a black rubber ring around the bearing that is in there now.

I never seen that rubber ring before. There is a seal on the other side, so I'm not sure it this is connected or what (?)

I am looking for a local machine shop that has time to mess with my piddly project stuff.

Let me know if you have ideas or a sure fire way to cross reference a bearing cup part to a specific bearing.

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[gegcorp2012]

Bumping the thread with an engine update. I have been building a "testing jig" to run the motor and practice working with tubing.

The side journey will give me some seat time on a reverse trike while I continue development on the buggy suspension.

The thread is here on the build off forum

"2020 - GEGcorp "Dirt Bobber Trike"
https://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?p=553926


One of the issues that has come up for the front end is some loose lower ball joints. If I go with the 350 Warrior front end that I have, I plan to rebuild the lower a-arms to make use of adjustable ball joints that are correct for the spindles.

My biggest reservation about using the Yamaha front end (besides all the re-work) is the bolt pattern will be different than the Honda Civic rear.

May be more efficient to build something based on Civic parts (including brakes).

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[gegcorp2012]

2020 year end update -
This buggy project went in hold as I continued work on my "Dirt Bobber" reverse trike build (for engine testing) which I drove for the first time in August.
I got really interested in suspension rework and modeling, so I used that project as "more practice" before moving on with the buggy build.

In late December, I ordered some tubing to make the rear bearing carriers from. I need to make a drawing and get the parts to a machine shop to cut a groove for a snap ring.

Engine work over the summer of 2020 :
upgraded the ignition to stick coils for a better spark.

I checked and set the valve lash to specs. The motor has 17,500 miles on it, so that may have been the first valve adjustment.

I changed the oil and filter and let 'er rip.

The highest I have revved the engine so far is around 6000 RPM (doing a burnout). I have not bounced it off the 10,500 RPM red line, but have driven it (or spun the back tire) over 50 miles, mostly on my back yard track.

The motor is starting and running good, but the Dirt Bobber needs some wide open space to be able to get up to 8500 where the power band starts.

I will have to find a good place to ride for the buggy as well.

.... so here is an engine test on Jan 1, 2021. I took @Budget GoKart 's burn out challenge and posted this video for fun:

 

[gegcorp2012]

Wheeling and dealing...or deals on wheels.

I was shopping for a set of 15" torque thrust style rims and found a really good deal this set by Konig.

The seller was getting out of Miata racing and wanted to get rid of all the tires in his yard by this weekend, so he made me a deal on the two sets of 13" rims and Hoosier tires to take them all.

I plan to take the Hoosier dirt stockers off the Mazda RX7 rims and put them on the chrome track rims for yard and track days.

That will give me a set of 21" tall tires I can use to build out the suspension, and I can start shopping for a set of 15" off road tires to go on the Konigs for additional ground clearance.

Then I can sell/trade the set of RX7 rims to help fund plans, machine work, laser cutting and tubing for this project.

Wheeling and dealing.