Clutch Positioning

XanderWiFi

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Predator 212 6.5 hp
Centrifugal Clutch

lining the clutch sprocket up with the axle sprocket causes the clutch to slightly hang off the drive shaft. Is this acceptable if I put a spacer between the clutch and the shaft shoulder in addition to the washer on the end?

pictures for better reference. If unacceptable, I’m not sure how to remediate. Drill new motor mount holes in the base plate?
 

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Colemanman

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Yes it is ok. Does your clutch have set screws? Youll need em to hold the clutch in place. If you dont have set screws, your going to wanna get washers with the same size outer diameter as the clutches inner diameter and them to where the clucth is hanging off the shaft a bit. tYou dont want to tighten the bolt against the clutch it self, but rather against the crankshaft with a bit of left to right movement stil left on the clutch. About a credit cards width. Hope this helped.
 

itsid

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it's very close to the chassis too..
but yeah, a spacer behind the clucth and a the clucth bolt should keep it in place..
a shaft extension spacer would be superb but isn't exactly necessary IYAM.
You can and SHOULD tighten the shaft bolt against the clutch.
all the necessary play is already in the clutch bell to it's base!
The clutch base and shaft should be SOLID and that's what you tighten against with the engine shaft bolt.

What IS necessary however is a new axle sprocket I'm afraid,
your's is done and gone..
having it flipped during the restoration doesn't buy you much time either I'm afraid.

Assuming you already have new chain on your desk.
you really need a new sprocket; this one will only wear down your chain prematurely,
and that may cause a similar wear pattern on the clutch in return...
causing you to have to buy a new sprocket, clutch and chain in a few weeks of driving it around
instead of buying a new sprocket now .

'sid
 

XanderWiFi

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found the missing content allow me to put it in here where it belongs -sid-

Yes it is ok. Does your clutch have set screws? Youll need em to hold the clutch in place. If you dont have set screws, your going to wanna get washers with the same size outer diameter as the clutches inner diameter and them to where the clucth is hanging off the shaft a bit. tYou dont want to tighten the bolt against the clutch it self, but rather against the crankshaft with a bit of left to right movement stil left on the clutch. About a credit cards width. Hope this helped.
Yes this clutch came with 2 set screws. If those are clamped down on the shaft and keylock how does it get its play? And is the shaft bolt necessary when there is set screws?

it's very close to the chassis too..
but yeah, a spacer behind the clucth and a the clucth bolt should keep it in place..
a shaft extension spacer would be superb but isn't exactly necessary IYAM.
You can and SHOULD tighten the shaft bolt against the clutch.
all the necessary play is already in the clutch bell to it's base!
The clutch base and shaft should be SOLID and that's what you tighten against with the engine shaft bolt.

What IS necessary however is a new axle sprocket I'm afraid,
your's is done and gone..
having it flipped during the restoration doesn't buy you much time either I'm afraid.

Assuming you already have new chain on your desk.
you really need a new sprocket; this one will only wear down your chain prematurely,
and that may cause a similar wear pattern on the clutch in return...
causing you to have to buy a new sprocket, clutch and chain in a few weeks of driving it around
instead of buying a new sprocket now .

'sid
The frame? Yes, unfortunately the old motor was no good and that was what my grandfather welded the roll cage around. I am very much hoping to avoid having to cut it off.

I want to make sure I understand fully what you are explaining as this is all new to me:
1. Put a spacer between the clutch and the shaft shoulder (engine side)
2. Shaft bolt, larger washer, tight into the shaft to keep clutch from coming off the end of the shaft.

It does have set screws. Are clutches with set screws supposed to not have a little side-to-side wiggle room? I read differing things on this. Some say it is supposed to have some movement on the shaft but if you are licking it down with set screws won't that prevent it?

In regards to the sprocket. You are seeing things my eye isn't trained to pick up at all. Comparing the clutch teeth to axle teeth, are the axle teeth worn in comparison? They do appear to be smaller and less robust. I do have a new chain on the desk along with the old one I am attempting to keep salvaged. I am going to look further into this. Any additional advice you can give on purchasing a new one? I would most likely count all the teeth, measure the size and buy something that is the same.

Thanks all for the replies.

it's very close to the chassis too..
but yeah, a spacer behind the clucth and a the clucth bolt should keep it in place..
a shaft extension spacer would be superb but isn't exactly necessary IYAM.
You can and SHOULD tighten the shaft bolt against the clutch.
all the necessary play is already in the clutch bell to it's base!
The clutch base and shaft should be SOLID and that's what you tighten against with the engine shaft bolt.

What IS necessary however is a new axle sprocket I'm afraid,
your's is done and gone..
having it flipped during the restoration doesn't buy you much time either I'm afraid.

Assuming you already have new chain on your desk.
you really need a new sprocket; this one will only wear down your chain prematurely,
and that may cause a similar wear pattern on the clutch in return...
causing you to have to buy a new sprocket, clutch and chain in a few weeks of driving it around
instead of buying a new sprocket now .

'sid
I'm not opposed to doing it all correctly and getting a small shaft extension spacer. The shaft is the predator 212 3/4" what size extension should I be looking for?

---------
[end of EDIT -sid-]


It said it was going to merge my posts but it appears to have deleted them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

itsid

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It said it was going to merge my posts but it appears to have deleted them.
Yes, something must have gone wrong.. I merged your posts
(really, double posting is annoying stop that please!)
I already asked our Admin to check the database and logs to find out what had happened.
I hope the merged post only lost it's assignment to this thread and is floating in the twilight zone
waiting to be ressurected.
but I can't tell yet.

I'm glad you got the merge message .. since that tells me I haven't misclicked by accident ;)
Still sorry for the inconvenience;
on the other hand if you would JUST EDIT your posts instead of replying five times in a row in a matter of minutes..
(as I have asked you before)
I wouldn't have had to merge the posts in the first place ;)

Anyways.. it's a shame that the post seems to be gone,
I surely hope it can be brought back, but unfortunately I can't tell for sure.
And worse.. I have no idea HOW it deleted/detached/vanished from this thread.
(shouldn't be possible this way... since usually we mods can still see deleted stuff.. but this is truly "invisible" [hopefully just])

'sid
 

itsid

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Well on a bright note: the content was found..
and put back in place (timestamp's now off.. but at least it's in the correct order in the thread)

If you feel like you need to leave because of this mishap, I'm sorry.
If you feel like you need to leave because I told you to stop double posting,
I'm much less sorry; still mildy-sorry-esque but not nearly enough to stop reminding you of the edit-buton!


And now onto the reply to your above 'on topic' post shall we ;)

Yes this clutch came with 2 set screws. If those are clamped down on the shaft and keylock how does it get its play? And is the shaft bolt necessary when there is set screws?
No need for play..
and with the set screws tightend down, no need for a crank shaft bolt either.
the set screws work perfectly fine on their own

The frame? Yes, unfortunately the old motor was no good and that was what my grandfather welded the roll cage around. I am very much hoping to avoid having to cut it off.
I doubt there's a need for cutting anything.. it's just a tight fit,
and if you could add some mesh so that nothing can catch inbetween the frame and the clutch, I am sure it'll be fine
it's not like the engine is going to move around much, is it ;)
(just make sure no clothes or hair or sticks and debris can catch inbetween the clutch and the chassis to be safe)

I want to make sure I understand fully what you are explaining as this is all new to me:
1. Put a spacer between the clutch and the shaft shoulder (engine side)
2. Shaft bolt, larger washer, tight into the shaft to keep clutch from coming off the end of the shaft.
correct spacer between shaft shoulder and clutch and lock the clutch position with the crank shaft bolt (and of course a matching washer)
BUT:
It does have set screws. Are clutches with set screws supposed to not have a little side-to-side wiggle room? I read differing things on this. Some say it is supposed to have some movement on the shaft but if you are licking it down with set screws won't that prevent it?
you have set screws, so there's no need for any spacer or even the crank shaft bolt.
as mentioned above, they alone will keep the clutch in place just fine and lock it's position.

The clutch sprocket usually is meant to have a tiny bit of play (that much is correct)
BUT that play is all in the clutch bell when it leaves the factory.. the clutch base plate should NOT have any play at all,
hence locking it with the set screws of tightening it with a set of spacers and the crank shaft bolt.

In regards to the sprocket. You are seeing things my eye isn't trained to pick up at all. Comparing the clutch teeth to axle teeth, are the axle teeth worn in comparison? They do appear to be smaller and less robust. I do have a new chain on the desk along with the old one I am attempting to keep salvaged. I am going to look further into this. Any additional advice you can give on purchasing a new one? I would most likely count all the teeth, measure the size and buy something that is the same.

yeah the teeth on the axle sprocket already have that typical shark fin shape a worn out sprocket tooth has
means there's too much play for the chain rollers and thus at the very least a very noisy chain..
at worst a prematurely wearing chain that in turn wears on the clutch sprocket.

IDK what sprocket mounting pattern your kart has I'm afraid.
I would assume it's a simple four hole.. but IDK,
just count the teeth and measure the bolt hole pattern and center bore.
with that I'm sure you can find a replacement sprocket on any and all gokart shops
(BMI, GoPowerSports, GoKartSupply, MFGSupply and so on and so forth)
if you're having troubles finding a replacemnt, just tell us what boltholepattern you got
and we can use some hive mind's eye to find you one

'sid
 

Colemanman

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I wouldnt bolt a washer against the against the clucth on the front. Ive had it smush the metal in and when it comes time to pull the clutch drum off to clean it and the shoes, it makes it a pain in the ***. Then you gotta file it down to remove the drum Maybe it hasnt happened to you but its happened to me with little torque, i always put a crank bolt in along with set screws. Theres no reason not to, its extra security.

The picture below shows what i meant by spacing the clucth out on the motor side and installing the washers inside the bore of the clutch when it hangs of the shaft. That way you wont bolt it against the clutch and it tightens against the crank and not the clutch. Again it adds security if the set screws fall out. Which ive had it rarely happen to me. Some clutches ive rear they recommend slight play on the crank and others do not say to let it "float". They say its for self alignment of the chain but I personally align them and dont let it have side to side play.
 

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itsid

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i always put a crank bolt in along with set screws. Theres no reason not to, its extra security.
True, no reason NOT to add a crank shaft bolt and washer
the washer should be a flat 1 1/8" diameter washer against the clutch however for a std 3/4" shaft,
But some cranks are just not drilled and tapped.. and the set screws still hold the clutch in place perfectly fine,
suggesting that there is no NEED for an additional crank shaft bolt for the clutch to stay in place.

Truth is, ideally the clutch is held on by the crankshaft bolt.
since it's much gentler on the clutch and the crank shaft and as soon as you have that crank shaft bolt in place,
there is no need to tighten the set screws (in fact you shouldn't to prevent the crank shaft from getting marked)

Lateral movement of the clutch base is unwanted and intentionally adding play therefore is also not a good suggestion.
sufficient chain alignment play is already built into the clutch itself.

The stem seems to always get a miniscule burr and there's very little you can do about it..
Mine had that burr right out of the bag and I wasn't able to remove the bell without gently deburring the front edge,
although it never seen an engine before.
And while you could indeed mushroom it out if you gorilla tighten against the stem,
that is highly unlikely if you align the clutch properly.
it's always unneccessary to tighten the crank shaft bolt with any noteworthy amount of torque.
if it comes creeping back out try a different bolt or just add a drop of thread secure (locktite)
that will hold the bolt and clutch in perfect position while still preventing the clutch stem from mushrooming out.

as shaft extension spacer I always suggest to get a small length of 3/4" OD tube (not pipe!)
thinwall is okay, thickwall can come in handy once you deal with torque converters and longer keys.
cut and ground square to size (just under for using a single spring washer)
Another 3/4" (this time ID) tube can be used in the same fashion to cut a perfect spacer for "behind" the clutch
I'd like to suggest the single spring washer between the spacer and clutch and/or internal spacer and bolt,
that way you can observe the spring washer compressing when you bolt the clutch down.
and if you stop before it bottoms out, you cannot mushroom the stem and still have a nice and tight bolt.

'sid
 

Colemanman

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I tighten the crank bolt at about 15ftlbs and use lock washers. Its been workin pretty good.
 
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