burning up belts with my torque converter

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johne1984

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Hello everyone,

I just replaced a belt on my tav 2 30 series torque converter after using it maybe 3 times.The torque converter gets really hot, I was told that was not normal. I had to put a lug nut on the shaft because of the way it's threaded, the shaft isn't tapped. I also have a bunch of large washers, two for spacers, they're against the motor pushing the driver out so that it aligns with the driven. Then I have three more also on the shaft, they're also being used for spacers. I have them there so that my lug nut will tighten to the shaft. I'm thinking maybe the washers are too big and possible causing my shaft to wobble and create heat. Is that possible? Here are some pics of the set up. This is on a baja warrior.
 

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itsid

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that's odd the backplate should allow the driver to run much closer to the engine than in your pic...

but allow me a different question to ask first:
why is your belt worn on the OUTSIDE (the face that's never touching the driver/driven faces)??
That doesn't seem to be right..

is the belt installed correctly (flat side facing the engine)?
is it the correct length?
is your backplate bent?

could you post a couple of pics from different angles (driver driven.. everything)

I still don't know why you could possibly need that many spacers;
one for sure, a second is unlikely.. FIVE??!?!??!

Does it work correctly (can you see it shifting up and down)?

'sid
 

johne1984

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Hello Sid,

Thanks for your quick response. That's a good question, I don't know why the belt is worn on the outside. I just put that belt on today it's new. Maybe it's hitting the tc cover. The belt is installed correctly. This belt should be the correct length, the go kart store guy tolt me it was correct, but it was a bit snug more so than the original. It took some force to get it onto the brass ring. I don't think anything is bent the tc is new. It does seem to shift properly, it goes from slow to fast depending on the throttle. Maybe I should try and cut down a lug nut so that I don't need to use 3 washers. I also haven't put any dry lubricant on this thing yet.
 

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itsid

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hard to tell...
but if I had to make a guess.. it's NOT the correct belt!

please check the upper width to be 3/4" and try to measure the outer circumference the best you can; it should be exactly 27" O.C.

and since it's still hard to tell from a pic try to measure the side angles to be 2.5° (that'll be hard.. let's call it straight ;)
and 18° that should be clearly visible ;) in the Pic it looks straight... it mustn't be :(

Oh and you MUST remove the interference with whatever is touching the belt on the outside,
that cannot but cause heat and unnecessary abuse ;)

if in doubt buy an original 203589A comet belt ;)

'sid
 

Half-breeder

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I agree w/ Sid...

On my TAV2... I can slide(w/ alil force) the belt off/on, w/out removing anything... from your pic... looks like youd have to remove the driver clutch to get the belt off/on. If the belt is too tight, your causing the TC to fight w/ itself to equate the ratio's so as not to produce more torque than what is variated for it. You also may wanna do a overhaul maintenance on it(if you havent already). In addition to 'cleaning' it, ensure the springs arent stretched. Ensure driven opens properly/smoothly. Make sure no 'burrs' on any sliding parts. Should only 'need' a wire brush, carb/brake cleaner and a rag(dont go 'crazy' w/ the brush).
 

johne1984

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Sid, it is a comet 203589A belt. I'm not sure what angles I should measure, do you mean the belt angle? I noticed that when I rotate the driver pulley the gap between the washers and the back plate of the tc there is change of an eighth inch. So it must be mounted wrong not quite parallel with the engine and then wobbling. Would this create heat? I'm not sure what to do about the converter pulley and the belt rubbing against the cover. If I didn't have so many washers then it would be further back and likely not rubbing, but without the washers the pulleys wouldn't be parallel.

Hello half-breeder, This comet belt is pretty tight in comparison with the belt that came with the tc, but I'm suprised that you can put a belt on with out taking your driver pulley off. I have a new belt coming that I ordered from ebay I'm curious to how loose this one will be. I'm going to try cleaning and lubricating it and see how that works out.
 

itsid

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hehe, well I'm sure you misunderstood what Tihm meant..
I'm certain he has to remove the outer sheave just like anyone else ;)
but the inner sheave with the bronze bushing (3/4" shafts only) can stay on the output shaft and the belt should slight on easily over said bushing.
if you can't either the backplate is too long or the belt is too short.

talking of which.. the sidewalls angle compared to the outside is what you should measure..
the pulley grooves are asymmetric like \| as opposed to a V belt which -hence the name- looks more like \/
What you have looks more like an automotive belt with nearly 90° sidewalls (might be the image)

Anyways.. I checked the manual and the original spacer
has a part # 200389A (for 3/4" shaft) and if the internet is correct it's 1/2" wide

that is the only spacer that should go between the driver clutch and engine block.

If your inner sheaves (that's the only ones that count on a series 30 alignment) do not line up perfectly straight it's either a bent backplate or the driver pulley being installed incorrectly.
so let's see the bearing should sit flush with the backplate..
then there's the sprocket (no washer inbetween) and a thin washer between the sprocket and the inner sheave of the driver.
You should check that it's this order and that there's nothing else (no washers or spacers).

While you're at it.. personally I'd remove the backplate from the kart and check if it's straight or bent, just to rule that out.

Oh, another thing I have to ask, just to be on the safe side:
what's your gear ratio and wheel size?
maybe you're geared to high, and that's why you're burning through belts?

'sid
 

ML-TOYS

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You should only have 1 spacer on the motor side of shaft. Did you add more to line up with driven ?
Or since its a baja did your rear sprocket not line up with the driven sprocket like on mine. I had to shift the motor over a bit for it all to line up correctly.
If this is why your driver is that far from plate then you are probably getting the wobble burning the belt.
Also my belt went on nice and easy and i was able to spin with little effort by hand.
 

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johne1984

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I can't figure out the angle I think I need a tool for that. The back plate is straight. I have a half inch spacer that goes in between the clutch and the motor but its a quarter inch short, without the washers the inner wall of the pulleys won't be on the same plane, maybe you can see in the picture they line up with the washers. I have it set up just like the diagram except for the washers and lug nut, maybe I should tap the crank shaft and put a larger spacer in, I don't know. The wheels are stock baja wheels and sprocket, I believe it's 50 10 teeth set up.

Hi ML-TOYS, I dont understand, if I move my motor my tc will go with it right?
 

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itsid

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Okay, the backplate indeed looks nice and straight, that's good :D
and that indeed is the correct belt; so it will fit perfectly...
you should clean the mating surfaces of your driver clutch (very minor issue, but it doesn't harm to clean it up ;))

BUT...
I'm not satisfied with the alignment of driver and driven on your pic...
keep in mind that the inner sheaves are not perfectly flat.. it's a 2.5° angle ;
and if you look very very closely at the image you posted.. the triangle pivots on the driver towards the driven unit
(notice the gap is much bigger wher the triangle is marked -coincidentally- PIVOT :D)

ergo: the driver should move slightly in for a perfect match.

If you have check the alignment using a line laser (any cheap one will do), not a physical ruler;
then try to draw the line on the very edge of inner sheave (inside edge, towards the belt);
that way you not only make sure they're aligned perfectly, you can alos check if they're perfectly parallel ;)

If you don't have a line laser at home (I hear some simply don't ;)) then a simple thread will do too;
it's just annoyingly difficult to fiddle with both hands and still keep an eye on the alignment;
so you might need a helping hand :D


'sid
 

johne1984

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Okay I cleaned up the torque converter with a wire brush and carb cleaner. I then replaced my giant washers with smaller ones and lubed up the tc with graphite lube after that I lined up the pulleys with a laser just like you said ( I ended up moving the driver back to the motor a bit). I just got back from riding for 4 hours and the bike is shifting better, much smoother also less vibration. It still gets hot but I don't think the belt is melting anymore. Is it normal for the tc to get hot? Is it normal for parts of the tc cover to get to hot to touch? Is it normal for the belt to fray a little bit?
 

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johne1984

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Yes ML-TOYS my driver doesn't line up with my driven that's why I'm using a spacer and an added washer. My tire sprocket lines up perfectly with my tc.
 

itsid

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it shouldn't get too hot no.
the driver is heat conducted to the engine.. so it'll get warm of course.
but too hot to touch... sounds like the belt is slipping.

Please check that that little clover hub that sits inside the driver unit drops through the outer sheave on it's own weight.
it must not be loose enough that it wiggles inside the sheave but loose enough to drop ;)

little fraying is normal, the belts are cut from a tube, so the edges aren't sealed and within the first few hours of use the threads will show a little.

that belt looks more fried than frayed to me... are your sheaves smooth or are they rusty or even burred? (check both, driver and driven)

I'm sorry, but the heat thing to me means you still have an issue, but ATM I have no idea what it's caused by other than a potentially slipping belt :(

Wait... maybe your engine idles just a tad too fast and the outer sheave is already pushing against the belt ever so slightly ? *shrugs*...

'sid
 

johne1984

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I made sure that the clover piece slides easily the last time I cleaned it then I checked it after riding and it was still sliding nicely. The pulleys are very smooth. I received my new belt today and I put it on and it's tight, it takes force to get it onto the ring and just like with the comet belt after it's on and I'm pushing the bike around I've noticed that the belt grabs and makes it difficult at times to move the bike, also the bike doesn't want to idle it wants to move, last time I rode with the comet belt I had to put the choke on the bike to keep it from taking off while idling. It's odd that the original belt that came with the tc fit perfectly. It slid right on over the ring no problem.
 

johne1984

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Okay I may have figured out why the belts are too tight. I just called the company that sold me the tc on ebay. Custom service told me the replacement belt # for this tc is 473725 and that they sell them for 20$ It looks like the last two I bought are the wrong size. I'll have to buy another belt and see how that goes hopefully these 20$ belts last more than 8 hours (which is how long the original belt lasted).

Update: The company I bought the tc is the only place that sells them and after tax and shipping it's 29$ a belt. Maybe I should have bought a name brand tc.
 

itsid

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wait what.. So BMI says the original TAV2 needs a larger belt than what comet says?
hmmm ODD!

Or it's not an original TAV2 (no TAV2 at all; that's a trademark!)

Anyways.. the GTC TC2 (basically a TAV2 clone is 100% compatible with the TAV2 according to their website.

so what's left is a cheap chinese knockoff...
then yes.. measure the center to center distance to get it right;
the next comet size would be 5959 with an outer circumference of 27.4"
(actually a specific Manco belt... but still available.)

a tight belt will totally cause too much friction and with that heat.
So yeah, very well possible that the Comet belt is just too short.

Since it's still new, maybe you can return it, or you can ask in our trading section if someone's interested ;)

'sid
 

johne1984

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I don't know if it's a larger belt, they didn't tell me that. I'm guessing it needs a larger belt. I'll have to order one and measure it. I think it's a tav knock off http://m.ebay.com/itm?itemId=191201167599

I can't return it now that I've cut part of it off to fit my baja. I just hope the new belt will resolve the problem.

Thanks Sid for taking the time to help this newb out I appreciate it.
 

itsid

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you only need to measure the center to center distance of your driver and driven.

Then you can tell by that number what belt you need (original belts)
the 200389A is good for 6 10/16" to 6 11/16" C2C
the 5959 from 6 15/16" to 7"
etc...
see the full list here

with that you should be able to determine the belt you're going to need.
Well.. for original comets that is ...
if your clone is inbetween, then maybe you indeed need the BMI belt you talked about,

I didn't meant to return the torque converter.. just the 'new but too tight' belt ;)

'sid
 
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