2 stroke vs 4 stroke CVT ratings

Kartorbust

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So looking at the higher end CVTs (780 Comet and 94C Duster) they have the 2 stroke horsepower and rpm ratings and the same for the 4 stroke. It probably has to do with how the engines make their power and what not, but is there a reason that the 2 stroke can be rated at 30hp but the 4 stroke rating is about half at 16hp? Does that rating even really matter with a 4 stroke vs 2 stroke? The 2 stroke is also rated at 10k rpm max while the 4 stroke is rated at 5500rpm.
It doesn't really seem like many take this into consideration, but I would like to just so I can make a better decision and not burn out the CVT prematurely.
 

BigWes

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Interesting question! I've never looked into it myself. There is a major difference in the two engines though. The four stroke in the same range is probably making a lot more low end torque. So maybe that has something to do with where the power and RPMs are set.
 

itsid

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kinda makes a difference..

a four stroke usually has a higher torque than a two stroke and worse at lower rpms

at high rpms the centrifugal force applied by the weights is greater
than it'd be at lower rpms

therefor the difference is:
4stroke high torque low rpm AND lower clamping force [less friction]
2stroke low torque, high rpm AND higher clamping force [more friction]

at full extend and full speed the difference in clamping force is essentially zero,
but it's the take off and low speed where you usually burn your belt ;)

'sid
 

Kartorbust

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So we should be more concerned with where the engine starts making torque? Then at that point, is it more beneficial for 4 stroke engines to be modified for torque engagement at a higher rpm, or will that not make a difference?
 

J.S.@SMS

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding of dirtbikes, four strokes make lots of low end torque, while two strokes make lots of high end power and can rev. That's why four stroke bikes can take the inside line, while two strokes take the outside of a turn.
 

itsid

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So we should be more concerned with where the engine starts making torque? Then at that point, is it more beneficial for 4 stroke engines to be modified for torque engagement at a higher rpm, or will that not make a difference?
essentially yes.. but that might not pay out.
belt drives do not like torque, it makes the belt slip.
they like rpms more (inertial difference is small..less slip on the belt)

30hp @ 13000 rpm isn't impossible on two strokes,
getting to 20 horses @ 8000 rpm is quite a task for a industrial engine already

So the only way to increase power further would be to go bigger in volume
and that always also increases low end torque.
To a point where it might again be beyond what the TC can handle
at those lower speeds...

And while a torque@rpm table would be nicer to have as a TC rating
in order to be able to make the best decision.
the more general 4stroke vs 2stroke hp rating is essentially what it boils down to
and the less inclined user is still able to follow along.

Okay other way around example:
the series 30 is rated 8hp (both actually, 2 and 4 strokes IIRC)
slap a gx200 on it modded and pushing 10 or 11 horses @ 7000 rpm
since all the horses are in the upper rpm band
and no real torque improvement had been done, the TC will not care

now instead get the compression ratio up as high as you can
grind yourself a torquer cam and retard timing by a few degrees
to get the best bang at just 2800-3000 rpm
and you'll have a nasty low end torque and no noteworthy hp gain
staying below the 8hp rating even
but the series 30 belt will likely have to be replaced every other time
because the low end is just above what the tc belt can handle.
and more compares to the low end of a gx390 13hp engine
than a say gx240 it'd still be rated for

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding of dirtbikes, four strokes make lots of low end torque, while two strokes make lots of high end power and can rev. That's why four stroke bikes can take the inside line, while two strokes take the outside of a turn.

I wouldn't say that 2strokes cannot take the inside line
(2 strokers need to shift more during a race usually.. but that's about it)
and while 2 strokers likely need more rpm in a turn,
they are unlikely at significantly higher speeds in that turn
same speed = same line is fine to assume
(the rider is the most important variable really)

And past the apex all riders prefere the 'faster' outside anyways;)

'sid
 

Kartorbust

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Now if only single cylinder 2 strokes were more readily available that are setup for a CVT. 30hp in a 2 stroke is right around the 250cc mark. Guess I'll have to use my Vanguard on a different project and start looking for a more suitable engine for this project. Thanks for the help Alex.
 

itsid

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well a modern day 250cc two stroke can be had with six speed gearbox and 100+ horses...
... if you're willing to pay for a kart 250cc racing engine that is ;)

frankly with all the two stroke pitbikes (and their gearboxes)
the only chance to get one for a TC are air motors (ultralight and such)
or maybe a drone engine..
Rotax has all of the above for example ...
still not too cheap I'm afraid :(

oh wait.. sled engines.. almost forgot (long time no snow around here) :D

'sid
 

Kartorbust

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Trying to find single cylinder sled nowadays sucks. Fun fact for those who did not know, the kid sleds nowadays use an industrial engine with a centrifugal clutch not a CVT. I'm looking at sled engines, thought about going with a modern Yamaha Phazer 500cc 4 stroke, but trying to find a sled for a reasonable price like that, is hard. So I'm looking for electric start 2 strokes. I had thought about doing a shift buggy many times, but after hearing that others who have done a motorcycle powered buggy need to get a new clutch after a couple seasons, doesn't sound that appealing to me.

Fortunately I'm in the midwest, so sleds are relatively common. Rotax is the only company that offers crate engines (go figure).
 

Kartorbust

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So originally I had wanted to do the old 94c Duster on the project. I think the reason I didn't want to use it was that the top end wasn't that great, however I cannot find the ratios for it now, go figure. Would the 94c be more suitable for a mild V-twin 16hp build, say 25hp with 6,500rpm top end?
 

itsid

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So originally I had wanted to do the old 94c Duster on the project. I think the reason I didn't want to use it was that the top end wasn't that great, however I cannot find the ratios for it now, go figure. Would the 94c be more suitable for a mild V-twin 16hp build, say 25hp with 6,500rpm top end?

what? the 94c top end not "that great" ?
it has almost 20% overdrive !!

with a 90D driven that is (overall ratio 4.2:1)
[LOW: 3.61:1 HIGH: 0.82:1]
with a 100D driven it's indeed (overall ratio 3.78:1)
[LOW: 3.98:1 HIGH: 1.05:1]

the only thing that speaks against a 94C/90D combo IMHO is
the price.

so for anything 40horse or less I doubt there's a much better alternative really
cheaper? sure!
better?.. IDK

'sid
 

Kartorbust

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In comparison to the 770, 780, and 790 ratios. But since the Duster will take more abuse by comparison will be the one I go with. $199 for the driver and $220 for the driven, roughly the same cost for the 780, and like half the cost of a CVTech.
 

itsid

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25hp you said...
the 780 (770, 790) is only rated for up to 20hp on four stroke (or 16?? can't recall)
ratio wise it's indeed nicer even,
but the comparator for the hp rating then would be a 1190 ... (clutch only List Price: $1,247.99 OUCH!)
(essentially the rating of a 94c and the ratios of a 780 )

'sid
 

Kartorbust

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I've seen conflicting ratings, seen 16hp and 20hp for it. An 1190 would be nice, but it's out of my range for the time being. $500 just for the driver and $375 for the driven, oof duh.
 

Kartorbust

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If I do go down that route with the Duster, should I look at one with the standard 1600/1700rpm engagement or should I look to the 2100rpm engagement? Rather not run out of steam at the top end, but rather not sacrifice the bottom end either.
 

karl

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If I do go down that route with the Duster, should I look at one with the standard 1600/1700rpm engagement or should I look to the 2100rpm engagement? Rather not run out of steam at the top end, but rather not sacrifice the bottom end either.

I think the 2100 would be a better match, especially if you are shooting for 6500 rpm (aftermarket cam?)
 

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Kartorbust

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Yeah I was thinking for a better mid range cam when I do this. I'm planning on rebuilding the engine. It's about 20 years old with almost 800 hours on it. So I am going to rehome the cylinders (maybe punch it out a few thousandths over and drop in larger pistons, long as it doesn't shrink the walls too much), billet rods, flywheel with ring gear (with the setup in the Cub tractor, no pull start), have a GM 3 wire 63amp that I'm going to run off the engine (another reason why I'm hesitant of going with a sled engine).
 

Kartorbust

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So on another note, I'm not sure how many of you follow Red Beard's Garage on YouTube, but he uploaded some videos from MaxTorque with GoPowerSports. In the latest video, the owner or at least manager of MaxTorque stated that the Comet 30 series was designed specifically for mini bikes, do to the tapered belt design, so it's not really intended for go karts. Is there any validity of this? If so, should we start encouraging the use of the 40 series for go karts and 30 series on mini bikes only?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSqlufsw874
 
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