Camber, caster, Ackerman

[babzog]

I gather then, with forward pointing steering arms, the tie rods are always crossed? So, one mounted one on top of the bellcrank and one underneath to provide the clearances? Must look weird... I can see why folks mount them behind and point the steering arms at the rear axle, so much simpler.

[jamyers]

Originally Posted by babzog

I gather then, with forward pointing steering arms, the tie rods are always crossed? So, one mounted one on top of the bellcrank and one underneath to provide the clearances? Must look weird... I can see why folks mount them behind and point the steering arms at the rear axle, so much simpler.

Not always, mine are mounted side-by-side on the steering column arm.

But then, my kart's front tires toe-in when turning (anti- or negative-ackermann), which is supposedly the opposite of what I want/need.

More excellent reading on Ackermann principles here in this Aussie Word doc.

Apparently, even in the racing world there's no clear agreement on whether you want positive, none, or negative ackermann - it depends on so many different things...

[Fabroman]

Since there are a lot of posts asking for the type of info in this thread & this thread provides said info, why is it not a sticky?

[landuse]

Originally Posted by Fabroman

Since there are a lot of posts asking for the type of info in this thread & this thread provides said info, why is it not a sticky?

I agree. I keep on quoting this thread to people. I always though it was a sticky

[r_chez_08]

Same, I followed everyones advice after I posted this, and my kart steering was great.

[Nodroz]

Wow, thanks for this usefull topic! I learned a lot now.

There is 1 question left:
What will the camber do with your steering? If you don't do anything with the camber, will you notice a big difference with a gokart that has a camber?

[r_chez_08]

I would set 0* camber and set your KPI correctly. You will notice a difference.

[Nodroz]

Originally Posted by r_chez_08

i would set 0* camber and set your kpi correctly. You will notice a difference.

0* = 0° ?

[r_chez_08]

Yep. I dont have a '°' symbol on my keyboard.

[toystory_4wd]

Originally Posted by Fabroman

Since there are a lot of posts asking for the type of info in this thread & this thread provides said info, why is it not a sticky?

It is now!

[Fabroman]

Originally Posted by Fabroman

Since there are a lot of posts asking for the type of info in this thread & this thread provides said info, why is it not a sticky?

Originally Posted by toystory_4wd

It is now!

Good one! Thanks

[toystory_4wd]

Y'know- I'm glad you proposed that. We have referred folks to this thread many times in the past, and a link to it exists in the "Helpful Links" sticky that Landuse compiled. With all that said, I have no idea why it wasn't stickied on it's own before, as there's some good, "must-have" info in here.

[Fabroman]

Originally Posted by toystory_4wd

Y'know- I'm glad you proposed that. We have referred folks to this thread many times in the past, and a link to it exists in the "Helpful Links" sticky that Landuse compiled. With all that said, I have no idea why it wasn't stickied on it's own before, as there's some good, "must-have" info in here.

After explaining Ackermann to a member I thought "there should be a thread here somewhere that includes all this" & I was about to create one. So I did a more thorough search & there it is!

[r_chez_08]

Cheers toystory for stickying this, there is a lot of helpful info here. My steering went from terrible to great! I used to have to steer with the brakes.

[realfast89gt]

Being an alignment specialist i know all about these angles, so i am curious why people are stating 0 degrees camber is good for karts.

I am sure optimal camber would be different depending if the kart is on road/offroad as well as if it has suspension or not.

For example, during suspension travel on a kart like mine the angles are going to change, so having a less negative camber degree would compensate for the change in camber during suspension travel.

On a kart like my brothers which has no front suspension, you would want more negative camber for cornering since as you corner the force is going to try and bring the wheels camber more positive.

Make any sense?

[r_chez_08]

I think 0* camber is suggested if KPI is used.

[realfast89gt]

Originally Posted by r_chez_08

I think 0* camber is suggested if KPI is used.

Interesting.

My brothers kart has kingpins and when he got the kart the front end was all bent and out of alignment. I suggested straightening it out, reinforcing it, and giving it some negative camber. The end result we have is about 1-1.5 degrees negative camber and it handles unbelieveable. Of course it is used almost strictly offroad, so it may not handle as well on pavement.

I will have to see what the kingpin angles are.

[Fabroman]

Originally Posted by r_chez_08

Yep. I dont have a '°' symbol on my keyboard.

So, how did you do that?

[toystory_4wd]

Originally Posted by realfast89gt

Being an alignment specialist i know all about these angles, so i am curious why people are stating 0 degrees camber is good for karts.

I am sure optimal camber would be different depending if the kart is on road/offroad as well as if it has suspension or not.

For example, during suspension travel on a kart like mine the angles are going to change, so having a less negative camber degree would compensate for the change in camber during suspension travel.

On a kart like my brothers which has no front suspension, you would want more negative camber for cornering since as you corner the force is going to try and bring the wheels camber more positive.

Make any sense?

As I'm sure you're aware, the truth of the matter is that entire books have been written on properly setting up frontends on wheeled things. It is also truth that much of it goes well above most people's heads. A further truth still, is that the vast majority of those incredible volumes of formulae, calculations and measurements, are completely wasted on the common yard kart and its variants. So why get into it all, when the information that is here is sufficient for all but the most critical applications.

Case in point- my go kart (before most recent mods). Rigid frame (NO suspension). 18" rear and 15" front turf tires. 310+lbs empty. Capable of 72 km/hr (46MPH), and primarily used on gravel, hard pack dirt, and grass. Live axle (NO differential). Steers exceptionally well, like the proverbial cat on a carpet, even tested on asphalt. And what was my setup?

10* Positive Caster (kingpin tilted back at the top.)
0* Camber (Steering straight ahead, wheels are perpendicular to the road surface).
0*KPI (Kingpins are not tilted left or right)
Full and proper application of the Ackermann Principle (In a turn, inside tire follows tighter radius than outside tire).

Yes, that's right- NO KPI or Camber. Now, for as much as I've gone on about the positive benefits of a proper KPI angle, I did not build these spindles or knuckles. I always intended to correct that, but frankly it handled so well that there was no need. Now that these knuckles are going on the Weed Warrior, I WILL be cutting them apart and building in an appropriate KPI angle for racing.

[realfast89gt]

Toystory, you almost always have a wonderful way to explain things.