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Old 08-03-2018, 11:56 PM
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Default Need Help Wiring the Loom for Electric Start Lifan 125cc Pit Bike Engine

Hi all,

We are trying to make a go kart using a 125cc lifan pit bike engine, and we bought this wiring loom for it but the wire colors don't match at all and it's really difficult to figure out what goes where, especially since we have no experience wiring stuff together or how any of the electric starting stuff works

We have been able to short the solenoid and get the motor to turn, so we know that it works, but we want to wire it correctly to start the motor correctly, after putting the key in and turning the ignition switch, then pressing the electric ignition button. What we have so far is the CDI box, coil, solenoid, and the battery all hooked up and supposedly correctly since the motor turns, but we don't know where to plug in the ignition switch. The brown and blue wires coming from the starter switch are the wires linked to the Click image for larger version

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ID:	99971, so we are looking for connections that have only two wires attached. We have tried every combination of wires that will fit into a Click image for larger version

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ID:	99972, and none have started successfully. Perhaps the wiring is incorrect and we need to move some around? We called the company and they couldn't provide a wiring diagram. We are unsure what our best bet is here, whether to buy a new 3rd party wiring loom (like the one we have), only simpler because it won't contain all the extra crap we bought (headlights, speedometer, etc.) or to just scrap the engine altogether and get a kickstart one. Any thoughts?

Last edited by itsid; 08-05-2018 at 05:49 AM. Reason: photos
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:12 AM
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pics doesn't show up for me
and the wall of text is terrible to read as well...

Anyways, wiring the starter is pretty straight forward;

the starter must have 12V directly from the battery (should be a heavy gauge red wire)
then the smaller red wire from the solenoid is hooked up to the starter push button.
Assuming the engine is properly grounded via the chassis, that's all there is to it!
the engine itself should have an either black or green heavy gauge wire to ground it..
hook that up to the battery negative terminal.

there should be another green wire (wire colors change I'm afraid, but green is usual)
that goes to a kill switch on a pitbike that's the solenoid ground wire IIRC.

(if you have a key switch you would want to double switch the starter solenoid red wire with the key switch, otherwise a bypasser could drain your battery through the starter for fun )

'sid

PS when in doubt about colors, disconnect the CDI (in order to prevent failures while testing) and find a 9V block battery.. use that to identify the solenoid leads... (the solenoid should click)
once identified, check which one is connected to ground (a multimeter comes in handy here)
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Old 08-05-2018, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
pics doesn't show up for me
and the wall of text is terrible to read as well...

Anyways, wiring the starter is pretty straight forward;

the starter must have 12V directly from the battery (should be a heavy gauge red wire)
then the smaller red wire from the solenoid is hooked up to the starter push button.
Assuming the engine is properly grounded via the chassis, that's all there is to it!
the engine itself should have an either black or green heavy gauge wire to ground it..
hook that up to the battery negative terminal.

there should be another green wire (wire colors change I'm afraid, but green is usual)
that goes to a kill switch on a pitbike that's the solenoid ground wire IIRC.

(if you have a key switch you would want to double switch the starter solenoid red wire with the key switch, otherwise a bypasser could drain your battery through the starter for fun )

'sid

PS when in doubt about colors, disconnect the CDI (in order to prevent failures while testing) and find a 9V block battery.. use that to identify the solenoid leads... (the solenoid should click)
once identified, check which one is connected to ground (a multimeter comes in handy here)

My friend made this post and we're working on it together. Thanks for the response, but I have some questions.

We wired the red wire coming out of the starter motor to the solenoid. Are you saying that this wire should go directly to the battery with no solenoid or switch in between? We can try that but it seems like it may start turning the motor immediately.

Beyond that, you're saying that the kill switch should be wired to the other end of the solenoid? There are two contact points on it. One with a red/yellow wire coming out of it and the other with a green/yellow wire coming out of it. So the kill switch hooks up to the green/yellow side and the starter button hooks up to the red/yellow side? I think the most confusing thing about this is that there are contact points with nuts on them to hold heavy gauge wire and then there are the wires that come out of those that lead elsewhere. What is supposed to be wired to the connection points? Currently we have the battery on one end and the starter motor on the other end.

As far as double switch. I'm not really sure what you mean. Our wiring harness came with some male/female connectors that are color coded (sometimes match, sometimes don't, which is really annoying) and the key switch has a male connector coming out that matches to a female connector. If we were to double switch the starter solenoid like you said, I'm not sure what we should do. Tearing the wires out of the connector doesn't seem like the best idea but if its not already integrated with a double switch when you connect the lego male-female connectors together then maybe we have to.

Anyway. We have been following some poorly done illustrations of the wiring and we thought we had it right, but there could be some outstanding problems other than wiring.

1. If the engine is not in neutral it won't start correct? The lever for shifting gears clicks forward and backward but we aren't sure it's doing anything because I can't hear anything mechanical going on inside that would indicate it's shifting gears. How can we know we're in neutral and not in gear?

2. We have the engine placed on some metal and have been using that as ground. Is this adequate or is it not good enough contact? Should we bolt the thing down and then try all of this again?

3. If all of this is so confusing and should be self explanatory then maybe the reason it isn't working is because we were shipped a bad harness? The connectors don't always match up to anything else and we can't find any brown or blue wire connector that goes to the ignition.


Thanks for the help you've been really integral to the success of our past project as well sid!

P.S. Will try to post the pictures he tried to upload... Give me a few minutes.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:48 AM
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Sorry that was a brainfart on my behalf..
the big red goes from the solenoid to the startermotor;
the SOLENOID is the one that has a big red one directly on the battery of course.
(it then shorts the two upon signal of the button)

the ground wire (usually green) shares most part of the wiring harness with the kill switch, yes.
the solenoid connects just before the killswitch (and just after the killswitch that ground goes to the CDI)
IDK what wiring harness you got, if it includes lights and/or accessories or not,
colors are unfortunately never consistent enough, not with random harnesses neither with chinese engines.

But it's usually pretty straight forward since the CDI has a 5 or six pin connector,
the massive power wires are fairly obvious, and there shouldn't be much left apart from that.
more often than not it's yellow (or yellow and black) to the rectifier
(check for output voltage [ac] with a multimeter on a running engine)
there should be one lead for the neutral indicator
(it has +12V in neutral, 0V in any other gear.. thus also easy to detect with the multimeter [battery connected or running engine])
And then for all I know it's only the starter solenoid left.
positive and negative should have different terminals
(the ground is a male connector, 12V female[sleeved])
the sleeves prevent accidental shorting against the chassis, which is perfectly okay for a ground lead to do (thus unsleeved male ).

Now what you need is the layout for your wiring harness in order to find out what goes where (what's meant to connect to what...)
same for your switch, you can just test it and take notes.

but essentially it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent.
if you choose to wire your horn button via a the head light wires to the starter solenoid, it'll still work

'sid

PS I attached your images to your post so that they'll show up properly and reliably.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
Sorry that was a brainfart on my behalf..
the big red goes from the solenoid to the startermotor;
the SOLENOID is the one that has a big red one directly on the battery of course.
(it then shorts the two upon signal of the button)

the ground wire (usually green) shares most part of the wiring harness with the kill switch, yes.
the solenoid connects just before the killswitch (and just after the killswitch that ground goes to the CDI)
IDK what wiring harness you got, if it includes lights and/or accessories or not,
colors are unfortunately never consistent enough, not with random harnesses neither with chinese engines.

But it's usually pretty straight forward since the CDI has a 5 or six pin connector,
the massive power wires are fairly obvious, and there shouldn't be much left apart from that.
more often than not it's yellow (or yellow and black) to the rectifier
(check for output voltage [ac] with a multimeter on a running engine)
there should be one lead for the neutral indicator
(it has +12V in neutral, 0V in any other gear.. thus also easy to detect with the multimeter [battery connected or running engine])
And then for all I know it's only the starter solenoid left.
positive and negative should have different terminals
(the ground is a male connector, 12V female[sleeved])
the sleeves prevent accidental shorting against the chassis, which is perfectly okay for a ground lead to do (thus unsleeved male ).

Now what you need is the layout for your wiring harness in order to find out what goes where (what's meant to connect to what...)
same for your switch, you can just test it and take notes.

but essentially it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent.
if you choose to wire your horn button via a the head light wires to the starter solenoid, it'll still work

'sid

PS I attached your images to your post so that they'll show up properly and reliably.

Alright so after painstakingly taking apart the cover of the harness and looking at where each wire leads I have drawn a diagram. Please forgive the crappy circuit drawing skills.

I left out the rectifier from the diagram because it is plugged into the only plug that fits it. I also left out the kill switch wire (black/white) since if it isn't connected to anything then there shouldn't be any issues with it stopping the engine from starting.

Do you see anything that doesn't line up with what you said to hook up to? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by 1 female 1 male connector on the solenoid (female sleeved). I mean there are two terminals (bolts) for securing wires to and two wires coming out of it on the bottom, but it seems like they are both sleeved. Here is a picture of the solenoid we have: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Qxv1K...Motorcycle.jpg

Thanks again for the help!

P.S. I forgot the label the solenoid but it is the thing in the center that connects the red/white wire and the fully red wire and has a red/yellow and green/yellow coming out of the bottom.

P.P.S. The label that reads "leads nowhere" just means it leads to a connector that I don't have the corresponding female/male connector for and thus it isn't connected to anything.
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:07 AM
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starter button is incorrect!
well the wiring for it that is.

the green wire on the lower left of your drawing needs to go to a +12V power line toggled by the key switch (ideally)
or at least to the posistive terminal of the battery.

kill switch MUST be connected in order to preven accidental shorts to ground.
(it should be a sleeved female connector or encased, but still)

Talking of which..
here's a pic from the auction above:
Click image for larger version

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See that all single wires but the green one are similar?
All female connectors (sockets) all with a clear silicone sleeve in order to prevent them shorting to ground...
the green one is just a male connector (prong, unsleeved) it likely carries a ground signal anyways, so there's no need to prevent it from shorting to ground.
(japan bullet style connectors in this case)

you also need the neutral indicator
(you mustn't ever try to start in gear!)
or at least a clutch with NO (normally open) switch to route the starter button through,
so that you can only fire the engine up if the clutch lever is pulled.
(you'd still want a neutral indicator IMHO but it's not essential then)

Connecting unknown parts just because the connector fits can cause catastrophic failures with chinese stuff.
(inconsistent wiring, colors and connectors)
So be carefull with that.

'sid
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
starter button is incorrect!
well the wiring for it that is.

the green wire on the lower left of your drawing needs to go to a +12V power line toggled by the key switch (ideally)
or at least to the posistive terminal of the battery.

kill switch MUST be connected in order to preven accidental shorts to ground.
(it should be a sleeved female connector or encased, but still)

Talking of which..
here's a pic from the auction above:
Attachment 100050

See that all single wires but the green one are similar?
All female connectors (sockets) all with a clear silicone sleeve in order to prevent them shorting to ground...
the green one is just a male connector (prong, unsleeved) it likely carries a ground signal anyways, so there's no need to prevent it from shorting to ground.
(japan bullet style connectors in this case)

you also need the neutral indicator
(you mustn't ever try to start in gear!)
or at least a clutch with NO (normally open) switch to route the starter button through,
so that you can only fire the engine up if the clutch lever is pulled.
(you'd still want a neutral indicator IMHO but it's not essential then)

Connecting unknown parts just because the connector fits can cause catastrophic failures with chinese stuff.
(inconsistent wiring, colors and connectors)
So be carefull with that.

'sid

Success! Well partially... I got the starter button to work and it now turns the starter motor when I press it. But I didn't hook it up to the key switch. I couldn't figure out how to. There are 4 wires coming out of the key switch and I'm not sure which to connect the green wire in the above drawing to. There's a green, a red, a black, and a green/black.



Also the engine is not in neutral because when I hit the starter button to test it (only for less the a second) the shaft turns counter clockwise. Now this shouldn't be a problem but somehow it won't shift gears. I got a multimeter and tested the gear indicator lights wires. Here's what I found.

Pictured below are the gear indicator wires coming out of the spot next to the sprocket.

The engine started with 12v on the black/green wire and 7v on the pink wire (not sure why). Then I shifted the gear counter clockwise (this is a semi auto) and the 12v changed to the light green/red wire. Now it is stuck on that wire and I can't shift forward (clockwise). I can shift backwards but it isn't changing the reading from the light green/red wire no matter how many times I try.

Since it is turning the shaft counter clockwise I would assume that this is one of the forward gears but I can't find any info online.

Any other info you can shed light on for shifting these engines/what gear wire means what would be great. Thank you!



Never mind all that I figured it out. Turns out you just press really hard...


The only thing left to figure out is the key switch problem then... any thoughts?

P.S. I hope I'm not annoying you with all these different questions haha. You're our only hope in figuring this out as you are the only one who seems to want to respond... So thanks again
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:42 PM
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how could you NOT figure that keyswitch out?

get a multimeter and test it.. set the key switch to ON
and see which leads are now +12V ( assuming you have the red one connected)
now eliminate all that are still +12V with the switch set to the OFF position;

any of the remaining will be usable to go to the solenoid.

Now gearing is a hair more difficult especially with cheap chinese engines like yours..
semi autos have a tendency to lock up in gear..
what you need to do
remove the spark plug (you don't want the compression to fight you later in the process)

get a length of chain handy that matches your sprocket (410?)

measure the leads and note down the 12V color on a piece of paper
(leave enough room above and below for all other colors)

shift UP (clockwise) if the line doesn't change, rotate the sprocket (counterclockwise)
shift UP again..
not down the new color ABOVE the previous one.

at one point you can no longer shift up being in highest gear...
not down 3rd next to it..
then downwards 2nd, 1st, neutral, reverse

Now shift down (counterclockwise) and test for colors again (yes, every time)
veryfy the colors you already have taken note of, and add the ones you haven't seen yet..
(if it doesn't change.. turn the sprocket counterclockwise a bit)
until you hit the neutral row..
Ones that lead goes live, verify the neutral by trying to spin the sprocket it should rotate MUCH easier and you will not hear the piston moving as before.
( add a checkmark to that row and color! )

The remaining color will be reverse, but you should still test it, shift down one more time and test.
the ONLY difference here is, in case it will not let you shift back again, rotate the sprocket clockwise now.

you now should end up with a list like:
  • 3rd <black>
  • 2nd <pink>
  • 1st <blue>
  • N <green> (checked)
  • R <green/black>
colors are imaginary examples ONLY... test to know

Shift through one more time to check and verify your list if you find oddities (like the 7V on pink)
add them to your list it might come in handy later on once you know all the sequence.
the ONLY thing really important to know is the Neutral
(easily determined by the freely rotating sprocket )
the one down is reverse and all up are forward in sequence no real need to gear indicate those really.

'sid
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Last edited by itsid; 08-08-2018 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:20 PM
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Alright I got the testing done for the gears and everything seems to be in order.

Pink is still not changing from 7V all through the gears but I don't think it should matter as long as I found neutral since they all click forward until 3rd.

The key switch is still weird though... I attached a picture of what I found testing all the leads and if I'm not mistaken then the black/green is wired backwards. When I have the key in the on position it recieves 0V and when I have the key in the off position it recieves 12V. Is there an easy way to switch this? All the other wires are stagnant and don't change when I flip the key.

Also I had to replace the fuse because that busted at one point and I replaced it with a 10A fuse. It didn't fix the problem but it was probably a good thing to do.

Thanks.
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:07 PM
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Test the keyswitch for continuity, not just volts. Set your voltmeter to OHMS.
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:15 PM
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Maybe (likely) because you wired the keyswitch incorrectly in the first place

IDK what switch you got, two, three or four position switch...
In any case

See if it has any form of markings on it..
usually single letters per terminal
B: goes to your battery + terminal
I: is the "Ignition wiring" (the 12V signal for your engine)
S or ST: is the solenoid connector (if it's a three or four position switch with turnkey start)
A: is the accessory switch (lights and such..)
if the switch has a lock position it usually also has a park position in which case
P: is the parking light

If you now connect the battery to something other than the B terminal you'll get a chaotic mess
(worse if you use any non vehicle-style key switch)

So disconnect the key switch entirely and multimeter (resistance/continuity test all wires 'offline')

draw a table use wire colors for the columns and switch position for the rows.
Add one more column and label it 'CASE')
Now turn the switch in the first position and draw a dot in all columns that have a connection and a line between the connected colors.
test all wires against all the other wires individually in pairs.
and lastly against the metal case just to be sure it's not a ground connecting switch

move to the next key position and repeat until all key positions are done.

Show us what you got.

'sid
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:42 AM
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Alright I believe I followed the directions as best I could. I set my multimeter to test continuity.

My key switch has two positions. On or off. Also when I was referring to the green/black wire that was receiving 12v only when the key was off in my last post, that corresponds to the white/black wire here. Like you said the colors don't always match and in this case everything else was the same between male and female connectors except white/black became green/black.

Picture 1: My results. Hopefully I did it right like you asked. In case it isn't clear though: the only times two wires were continuous was was when the key was in the off position and the continuity was between the white/black and green and when the key was in the on position and the continuity was between the red and black wires.

Picture 2: Shows how I was testing continuity. As you said to do I disconnected the key switch completely and tested each wire that was coming into the connector piece.

Pictures 3 and 4: Just show my key switch. You can see the four wires coming out and that there are only 2 positions, on or off.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:00 AM
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according to your table red and green have no continuity, according to your description they have..

if they have NOT (as per the table) it appears to be a chinese atv key switch (two circuit toggle)
crappy way of wiring something IMHO, but we can certainly work from there..

Okay, red to battery is correct,
black becomes the single new +12V power for everything that needs 12V from now on.
tach, lights, horn you name it.. and also the the starter button to fire your solenoid.

Bl/Wh goes to the killswitch and the CDI
Green goes to ground (negative terminal of the battery eventually)

'sid
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:33 PM
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Alright done! And the key switch works as intended. Now I've been trying to start it and I've noticed the starter motor doesn't stay continuously on while I'm holding down the button. It sort of intermittently revs and the engine won't start. I've got the gas in, oil in (idiot checks), I tried moving the choke lever and still doesn't want to start. I can hear it compressing properly but I think it may not have spark and I'm not sure how to tell. That or the starter motor not turning properly is the issue.

Are there any tricks to get these things to start for the first time? Maybe I could start a new thread about this topic, just let me know.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:46 PM
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Some electric start engines have a brake/safety switch wired inline so your bike/kart doesn't run off when you start it. Maybe something to look into.

Remove your sparkplug and plug the boot back on. Holding the boot so you don't get shocked press the end of the plug against the engine that is bare/metal and try to start it. You should see the spark while the starter is on.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:09 PM
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Remove the black/white wire from your CDI;
if at least that part of the loom is consistent with what I assumed earlier,
it's the kill switch signal.
If that is grounded (either by an engaged switch or some faulty line) the engine will not start.

That is after you verified you have no spark (as per Texan's advice)
if you have spark afterwards, reconnect the bl/wh wire to the CDI and trace it carefully to see how it's grounded.

if the engine never ran before, you have no fuel in the carb, so help with a bit of starter fluid.
or primer the carb (get a syringe, and with that create a vacuum in the overflow fuel line, that should suck some fuel into the carb)

Do not forget to add oil to the engine! (OOTB engines are bone dry!)

'sid
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:43 PM
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Ok so sorry for the late response but I do have spark and I got the engine to start with starter fluid. That means I've narrowed down the problem to the fuel delivery system. Either the engine is not getting enough fuel or it is getting no fuel at all. I stuck the fuel line in the top of the carb and have the tank sitting above the engine but it doesn't want to start. Next thing I'll do is start it with some starter fluid with the fuel line in and see if it stays running.

These engines don't require a fuel pump right? I wouldn't think so but just making sure. I also have been trying with the throttle fully open and with it fully closed and likewise with the choke. I'll update with more info later on.

Also I do have oil in it, don't worry about that I did the stupid checks first haha.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:59 PM
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As long as the tank is higher than the carb you shouldn't need a fuel pump. Does the tank or carb have a petcock? If you disconnect the fuel line at the carb, does fuel flow out of the line?
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Old 08-12-2018, 12:19 AM
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Yes the fuel flows out of the line if I disconnect it. Is this a bad thing? I looked up what a petcock is and it seems like it's just a fuel shut off valve. We do not have one of those. I honestly don't understand why the engine isn't recieving fuel.

There was a small plastic thing that seems like more of a check valve than a petcock that came with the crappy little gas tank we got. I'll link it. Is this what you mean? It's listed as a fuel filter though:

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Gas-Petrol-Ta...=1861087857018
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:55 AM
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hang on .. what carb?

post a pic how it's connected..

Also make sure the idle jet is properly set up
gently close it all the way (barely bottoming out)
and then 2.5 turns back out again ..
once the engine is warmed up release the choke and properly adjust idle (1200 rpms +/- 100)


the fuel filter acts as a check valve indeed,
so that if you connect it the wrong way around, the fuel has a hard time of passing through

the cap points downwards (towards the carb NOT the tank) sooo you might want to flip that

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