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Old 02-24-2020, 03:56 PM
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Default Mechanical Brakes vs Hydraulic Brakes

So I was reinstalling the axle on my Manco Dingo today, and after fiddling with the mechanical brake for about an hour or so (presumably because I have the IQ of a grape ), I got it on and adjusted correctly without the pads falling out. It got me thinking, unless a kart already comes with mechanical brakes, what's the point of even running them? I imagine they're cheaper, sure, but are they as good at slowing you down as hydraulic? They also need to be directly linked to the brake pedal itself with some sort of linkage AND they need to be adjusted manually. As far as I can tell, they suck. Why would you run them?
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Old 02-24-2020, 05:18 PM
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usually no adjustment is necessary really..
the caliper bracket needs to be clean and most of the time lubricated
(for single piston calipers, the caliper needs to float of course)
but apart from that they're really easy to setup.

hydraulic brake lines tend to age in the sun.. fade and eventually fail (dry rot)
something that's less likely and cheaper to fix on mechanical calipers.

hydraulic brakes are much much more complex..
air trapped in the system can cause all sorts of problems,
all gaskets and seals can and eventually will fail,
aforementioned brake lines dry rotting
and.. they still need an initial setup alignment that's about as complicated (wel... easy )
as what'd be needed for a mechanical setup.

And in situations where you don't actually need all the benefits of a hydraulic system,
a mechanical system is overall to be considered more reliable with lower maintenance.
hydraulic systems (well set up) are more powerfull and thus prefered especially for higher speed vehicles.

'sid
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:15 PM
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Like most things of a mechanical nature.. they need matainance and lubrication...

They typically are a pain in the rear...
But they can be made to perform in an exceptional way..
They just have some quirks...

If you need help, ask and show pics of your setup..
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:42 PM
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Front brakes are typically hydraulic. I am in the middle of a rather complex upgrade where I changed spindles and rotors. That is about 8x harder than Sid is letting on for a standard installation.

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Old 02-25-2020, 07:31 PM
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Ok, so I might not have set this up right, so I may need some help. This is going to sound stupid but just hear me out. This is my first time working with a mechanical setup so when I removed the axle from my kart the caliper had to come with it. Well when I took the caliper off, the brake pads and piston just fell out of the caliper. I thought this was normal and the pads were just held in with the rotor and the indents on the inside of the caliper, and I had to hold the two pads in place when I put the caliper back on to the kart. But when I double checked on YouTube, it looks like the pads are supposed to be able to stay in the caliper without being held in by the rotor. See here:


So how do I fix this? My caliper is the exact one in this video. Keep in mind the brakes worked fine before I took it off, it's just that the pads would fall out of the caliper if I removed the rotor. Is this just an adjustment issue or is the caliper itself shot or something? I did mess with the adjustment when I took it off just to see how it works, so it probably isn't adjusted right to begin with. But would that cause the pads to fall out?
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Old 02-25-2020, 08:35 PM
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yes if you cannot drop the axle straight down, the caliper has to move as well of course.

the caliper does not have a piston.. only a backing plate for the moveable puck
and an actuator pin do move it.

the pucks should be glued IIRC (weatherstrip adhesive?)

Anywass backingplate and actuator pin can indeed fall out if you remove the disc from the caliper if the pads are completely worn out.
on fresh pads/pucks being glued to the backing plate and the anvil
those touch each other before they could drop out
as you can vaguely see in the vid you posted..

or much better in Tmans video about adjusting brakes like that



I can't tell if you reassembled everything correctly..
maybe you forgot the backplate for the moving puck? maybe you forgot to glue the two together?
maybe you installed the actuator pin the wrong way around?
orrrr maybe neither of those

Only you can tell by disassembling it again and assembling it again taking care
to do it correctly

ahh look a short how2 from gokartsupply:
https://www.gokartsupply.com/discbr.htm

'sid
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Old 02-26-2020, 05:42 AM
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I think we mean the same thing by "piston" and "pin". Its a small piece of metal that's rounded on one side and flat on the other. Presses up against the backing plate that squeezes the two pads together. All pieces are where they should be, but I can confirm that there was definitely no adhesive on the pads. The pads themselves have a decent bit of life left, there was just no adhesive. Either way it looks like I'll be taking the axle out again. I might just pick up a new caliper since this one is pretty old anyway.

The rotor itself is also slightly warped, but since the caliper just sort of slides in I imagine it can accommodate for the slight warp (the caliper moves slightly as the axle spins). The rotor itself is welded on the axle. Whether it was always like this or the last owner did it is unknown to me, but after looking at other people's Mancos they all seem to be this way.
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Old 02-26-2020, 06:59 AM
5814SpeedCo 5814SpeedCo is offline
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On my build I'm putting all hydraulic brakes. All from a yfz450 to be precise. Of course none of my spindle components are something you can buy off a shelf and are designed to take a beating. The kart has a stock Predator 212 on it for now, but upgrades are planned for it. Riding motorcycles and other things, I have no issue with hydraulic brakes and are relatively easy to work on. Just get good brake lines, not the cheap crap! Stainless steel braided lines last a long time.

With anything, maintenance is key!
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:42 AM
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One these calipers described above, one is glued to the fixed half, the other is floating on the other with the backing plate. The floating is adjusted to the fixed with the adjustment bolt.

If a warped disc is used, that might be the most part of the problem as the contact patch is significantly smaller from the oscillation.

Lets see some pic of your setup... Something else seems awry...
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquidBonez View Post
I think we mean the same thing by "piston" and "pin". Its a small piece of metal that's rounded on one side and flat on the other.
yes that'd be the actuator pin.. rounded side points away from the plate and pad.

A piston is always sealed against it's cylinder and moving or moved by a fluid
a pin gets pushed on by a solid and transfers that motion to another solid... technicalities.. nevermind

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5814SpeedCo View Post
yfz450 to be precise.
indeed YFZ (quad) or is that a typo YZ-F (bike) or YZF (totally different bike)? just to be sure.. since yamaha's naming conventions are sometimes a bit too similar to distinguish between very different models.

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Old 02-26-2020, 08:22 AM
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I'll get a picture when I get home today. Should I just glue the one pad to the caliper? As for the rotor, It's a slight warp, might have always been that way and I just noticed it now. I didn't drop it or anything when I had the axle off.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
yes that'd be the actuator pin.. rounded side points away from the plate and pad.

A piston is always sealed against it's cylinder and moving or moved by a fluid
a pin gets pushed on by a solid and transfers that motion to another solid... technicalities.. nevermind


indeed YFZ (quad) or is that a typo YZ-F (bike) or YZF (totally different bike)? just to be sure.. since yamaha's naming conventions are sometimes a bit too similar to distinguish between very different models.

'sid
Nope, yfz450 quad calipers. Fronts on the front and rear on the rear.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:17 AM
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I was faced with this exact topic during my build:

http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41555

Short version, mechanical is ok at lower speeds/weights if in excellent working condition. If starting from scratch, I would go hydraulic every time. Your YFZ brakes should be great once they are adapted.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:46 AM
mckutzy mckutzy is offline
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Squid- Im going to say ya it should be fastened securely as possible....

Youll need to disassemble and completely degrease the half and new pad. Best using a 24hr epoxy but a good 5min will do...
(I sand the area rough and touch up the glueing surface of the pad)
After cleaning dont touch areas of the pad and mating surfaces of the caliper half.
Mix, apply, and have a clamp with some wood shims to back against(soft face clamps works aswell).

When you re apply to the machine, try sanding the pad to match the contour of the disc... I found this helps alot...
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Old 02-26-2020, 04:36 PM
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Here's the picture as promised:

Note that the adjustment screw is not adjusted correctly, so that's why the pads aren't making full contact. You probably can't see it but the rotor IS slightly warped, maybe only by a few millimeters. The caliper itself moves side to side slightly because of it, but I don't think it's enough to cause any major issues. Still might try straightening it if it becomes an issue.

The caliper has been disassembled and cleaned. The pads themselves are fairly new. Now to clarify, I'm supposed to put adhesive between the caliper assembly and the non-moving pad, correct (in this case, the pad on the right)? Does the moving pad (pin side) get glued to the backing plate or does it just float?
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:49 PM
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Yes the stationary side will have the pad glued onto it(the right side above)...

You dont need to glue the backing plate to the pad of the moving side.

You might be able to re align it??? Be careful.

When you do reassemble the caliper onto the kart.. make sure you grease those ways of the caliper bracket and grooves on the caliper, any chassis grease will do.
Dont forget the inside of the caliper.. the piston, actuation lever groove, pivots points aswell.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:58 PM
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From that pic you posted, the caliper is just not lined up properly. It actually look skew in between the pads. You aren't going to get full contact with the setup that way
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Old 02-27-2020, 05:50 AM
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I think the issue is with the pads holding the caliper at than angle. The pads haven't worn flat, they've worn at an angle. They do match up when I put them face to face, but they are not flat. Leads me to believe the caliper was like this before (I wasn't paying attention when I first took it apart). I could probably sand down the pads flat and that would straighten the caliper out.
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