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Old 09-27-2018, 10:21 AM
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Default The Harbor Freight V Twin

https://www.harborfreight.com/engine...epa-61614.html

I need to build a winch capable of 50 MPH or more. (This is getting out of hand I know)

I believe the 22HP engine could power it, but what transmission? Maybe I could get away with Comet 500 Series or 44D Series? Those are rated to 18 HP but these machines will pull people on snow, not having to move a heavy chassis for hours on end.
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:05 PM
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I am wondering if I'm getting in to the space where a torque converter just wont do it and we'd need a multi gear transmission, but I also think with correct gear ratio maybe we wouldn't have a lot of torque but could hit 50 mph
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:18 PM
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"I need to build a winch capable of 50 MPH or more." more details please. I'm intrigued.

is this a vehicle with a winch?
is this a winch that can pull a vehicle at 50mph?
is this a winch that can just pull anything at 50mph? like maybe a person wearing skies/kneeboard/wakeboard/surfboard....a board of sorts.

you got me thinking up crazy ideas.
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:25 PM
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Pretty sure the winch pulls people on snow/wake boards.
Clickity Click on his signature.
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Old 09-27-2018, 03:09 PM
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I dunno if more HP is the answer or not. Maybe I could take the 420cc engine and build it up.
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Old 09-27-2018, 05:18 PM
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How about a tall narrow collection drum. I don't know what you call it. Make the rope fill the drum faster, larger diameter means faster pull right?
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanotorious View Post
I dunno if more HP is the answer or not. Maybe I could take the 420cc engine and build it up.
Is this going to be a one-off custom job, or a production model? If it's going to be a production model, I probably wouldn't do a built 420 just for the sake of reliability.

Have you considered the Duromax 18hp? It's smaller, lighter, and cheaper than the predator 670and still higher up in the power range. Good and torquey too.

The problem I see with a multispeed trans is shifting mid-pull. The surge in the tow line could make things pretty hairy in the gear changes. I think a 40 series torque converter would be just fine.
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:44 PM
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The problem I'm seing is the jerk..

Let's assume a governed engine (for warranty reasons and such)
now.. 50mph @3600 rpms
means (with fixed gearing) 30mph @2200 rpms (clutch full engagement speed)

0-30mph in zero seconds is a tough pull on one's shoulders, is it not?

So, Torque converter.. say series 40 (just for the reduction rate, not the beefiness)
reduction 2.43 or better 2.83 with the 8.5" 44D driven pulley (let's take the latter)

~11 mph engagement speed (still 0-11mph in ZERO seconds is a violent pull on one's arms,
no?)


IDK, you will certainly know better than me... what would you say is the max initial pull
someone would want? 5mph.. less? more?

So, you would have to bring the engagement speed down (1600 rpm perhaps)
that'd be ~8mph ; again I have no idea if that's low enough.. I'd say it's at least inconvenient.

So, there goes the industrial engines
(idling at 14-15 hundred rpms we cannot set engagement speed safely below 1600 IYAM)

So instead I'd say you need the max speed at a much higher rpms
6k or more ....

IDK if that's a good idea to do on an engine like that (again, I'm sure you'll need to cover broken engines in your warranty at least for a good while)

How about a gy6 then?
(I know.. me too!!)
they run at 7000 rpms and the 150cc has ~9horses and the 250cc ~16 horses
they do come with their own CVT preinstalled and a fairly easy to get hold of.

And for sure both can propell the scooter they're designed for to 50mph or more.

So with the least amount of hassle and a decent price tag (chinese supplier not american!)
I'd at least call them a good candidate.

'sid
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
Let's assume a governed engine (for warranty reasons and such)
now.. 50mph @3600 rpms
means (with fixed gearing) 30mph @2200 rpms (clutch full engagement speed)

0-30mph in zero seconds is a tough pull on one's shoulders, is it not?

So, Torque converter.. say series 40 (just for the reduction rate, not the beefiness)
reduction 2.43 or better 2.83 with the 8.5" 44D driven pulley (let's take the latter)

~11 mph engagement speed (still 0-11mph in ZERO seconds is a violent pull on one's arms,
no?)

IDK, you will certainly know better than me... what would you say is the max initial pull
someone would want? 5mph.. less? more?

So, you would have to bring the engagement speed down (1600 rpm perhaps)
that'd be ~8mph ; again I have no idea if that's low enough.. I'd say it's at least inconvenient.

'sid
You forgot to account for the 44D's High Gear Ratio of 1.24 :1. Overall it is not 2.83, but 2.28 (or 2.29 according to the pdf) https://www.bmikarts.com/PDF/Comet_40series.pdf

To get around 5 MPH engagement at 1600 RPM, using the smaller 40D driven unit, 50 MPH would have to happen around 6k RPM. If 50 MPH was at 6k RPM, 1600 RPM engagement would be 5.5 MPH.

[50 MPH * (1600 RPM / 6000 RPM)] / 2.43

If those 1" 30 series TC's has the 10% overdrive in high and 2.68 in low, then you can get around 5mph at 1600 RPM engagement with 50 MPH at 5k RPM. Whether or not it would hold up is a different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
The problem I'm seing is the jerk..
Why's everybody blaming me for everything. LOL
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:52 PM
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true.. I forgot the high gear ratio not being 1:1..

BUT your math is still wrong..
first 6k is absurd for an industrial engine in that winch!
again, Ryan will have to give a warranty for the winch -and with that the engine-,
so it's not exactly smart to double it's rpms and cut it's lifespan in half and such

50/3600*1600 / 2.28 would be the corrected mathpart then...

resulting in 9.75 mph ... not too good, is it?

taking the smaller driven is indeed the better option with that in mind..
still
50/3600*1600 / 2.43... results in 9.15 mph

worse than what I thought..

So I still say the industrial engine is pretty much the worst way to tackle this project.
What it needs is an engine that bone stock is meant to run @6000 or more rpms.

'sid
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Old 09-28-2018, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
6k is absurd for an industrial engine in that winch!
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
BUT your math is still wrong..
Just because the concept is absurd, doesn't mean the math is wrong.

You mentioned around 5mph at engagement, I was just saying how to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob58o View Post
To get around 5 MPH engagement at 1600 RPM, using the smaller 40D driven unit, 50 MPH would have to happen around 6k RPM. If 50 MPH was at 6k RPM, 1600 RPM engagement would be 5.5 MPH.
[50 MPH * (1600 RPM /6000 RPM)] / 2.43 = 5.5 MPH

Plus I didn't see anything about a warranty in his post
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanotorious View Post
Maybe I could take the 420cc engine and build it up.
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Old 09-28-2018, 05:45 AM
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How much and what type of line are we talking about spooling up?

I like the suggestion for a narrower, deeper winch drum, so as the line piles up, the driving diameter increases.

Or what about a tapered winch drum with a power fairlead?
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Old 09-28-2018, 06:54 AM
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Tapered is a cool idea
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PULLEY.jpg  
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:39 AM
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well bob putting in 'fictional' numbers to get the result you're aiming for is cheating.. and cheating is wrong

Nevermind!
I can (almost) fix that for you with real numbers...

A series 500 TC has a nice wide range of gear reduction..
low end 3.34:1 and 19% overdrive (0.81:1 high end)
gives us a total of 3.53

50 / 3600 *1600 / 3.53 = ~ 6.3

6.3 mph doesn't sound too bad and the industrial engine is back in the game, no?

and a minor governor adjustment (say 4k rpm)
in case the manual allows for such like the honda would,
could get that even down to 5.67 mph
the series 500 can even engage at lower speeds (850 rpm is the lowest engagement speed)
But that depends on idle speed of the engine of course, since we don't want the TC to engage prematurely

I still wonder about the drum and all that...

I mean @ 50 mph we talk about .833 miles of cable every minute
and a minute of fun isn't that long either, is it?

So however narrow that spool would be, it would grow in just a few seconds and thus bring the speed back down considerably, no?
(assuming it's not 30 ft wide that is )

So you'd need a wrapper spool (pulling the cable in at the intended speed)
holding say five to ten wraps of cable only just to get the friction covered
and a collector spool behind that (running at a different speed to spool up the miles of cable)

The latter doesn't need that much power I guess,
so splitting the output of a single engine to power both at different speeds could work,
but the setup will be rather complex I imagine,
especially since the collector had to run at a variable speed whereas the driving spool should run at a fixed speed.

series 500 driven powering two sprockets on the other end of the jackshaft is the easy part,
but getting one of those to go slower when needed without affecting the other... IDK *shrugs*

'sid
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanotorious View Post
https://www.harborfreight.com/engine...epa-61614.html



I need to build a winch capable of 50 MPH or more. (This is getting out of hand I know)



I believe the 22HP engine could power it, but what transmission? Maybe I could get away with Comet 500 Series or 44D Series? Those are rated to 18 HP but these machines will pull people on snow, not having to move a heavy chassis for hours on end.
Upgrading a 420cc gets really expensive really quick a stage 2 420 is already the same as a 670 but with the 670 there’s more room to upgrade if u want


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Old 09-30-2018, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post

A series 500 TC has a nice wide range of gear reduction..
low end 3.34:1 and 19% overdrive (0.81:1 high end)
gives us a total of 3.53

50 / 3600 *1600 / 3.53 = ~ 6.3
I can fix this for you... LOL:

A series 500 TC has a nice wide range of gear reduction..
low end 3.34:1 and 19% overdrive (0.81:1 high end)
gives us a total of 4.12

3.34 / 0.81 = 4.12

50 * 1600 / 3600 / 4.12 = ~5.4
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Old 09-30-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob58o View Post
3.34 / 0.81 = 4.12

50 * 1600 / 3600 / 4.12 = ~5.4
oh right.. base correction not adjustment (multiplicative not additive)
forgot

But you know what else is flawed? (we both haven't noticed so far)

the engine is actually goverend at 4000 rpm not 3600 according to the link Ryan posted.

Soo it'd be
50 / 4000 * 1600 / 4.12 = ~ 4.85


'sid
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Old 09-30-2018, 01:39 PM
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Times sure have changed. Back in my day, about the time the circle was perfected, we used to find a big hill to slide/ride down. Luckily that was easy cuz glaciers had recently carved out a bunch to choose from. Only problem really, they were rough and stone wheel breakage was common place. Not to mention balancing them suckers.

Now a days you've got to deal with hundreds of miles of cable to do about the same thing.
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Old 09-30-2018, 02:12 PM
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Hey super.
Have you tried a loop type of drag rope instead of a wind up only.
Kinda like the ski lifts in a bunny hill.
You would need 2 good anchors but then you could make a cone drive. And ramp speed up gradually.
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