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Old 07-31-2018, 01:15 PM
Tpdingo Tpdingo is offline
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Default My ridiculous AWD mechanism.

I've been thinking too hard. Your brain will likely hurt after reading this. Grab some Advil and read along.

Ok, I think I've come up with the only AWD go kart mechanism that allows for one engine to be used and be created with parts from a tractor supply store, so no transfer cases, no wierd U-joint contraptions with with the axles, and surely no custom cv-joints. It uses two differentials and 6 90 degree gear boxes. It works by sending the power through two axles along the side of the kart inline with the go kart spindles. Then the spindles redirect power up and then sideways into the gear box. That allows the vertical shaft to be used as a pivot for the wheel. If a spindle arm and tie rod is connected to the top 90 degree box going into the wheel, that can be used for steering. The 90 degree gearbox's turning of the wheel can be taken up by the differential. Then the rear can be fixed by the rear differential. Pics for it to make more sense.

So the two diff's will be connected by one chain like this:


And the diffs will run the axles and wheels like this:


And lastly the power through spindles will work like this:
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:27 PM
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Insanely heavy and overly complicated IMO.

It would weigh so much, any advantage you might have from having AWD would be drastically negated by the weight and mechanical inefficiency of the whole system.

Plus without a differential between your differentials, you have really created a 4wd, not an AWD system, and will still see major issues when turning corners because the front and rear do not track the same circle.

Ever put a truck in 4wd and try to turn a tight corner on a hard surface? Shuddering and tire hopping the whole way. AWD vehicles do not do this because they have a differential (usually some form of limited slip) splitting the power between the two axles, which also have their own differentials.
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:36 PM
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How about two engines. Think Tank steering.
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anickode View Post
Insanely heavy and overly complicated IMO.

It would weigh so much, any advantage you might have from having AWD would be drastically negated by the weight and mechanical inefficiency of the whole system.

Plus without a differential between your differentials, you have really created a 4wd, not an AWD system, and will still see major issues when turning corners because the front and rear do not track the same circle.

Ever put a truck in 4wd and try to turn a tight corner on a hard surface? Shuddering and tire hopping the whole way. AWD vehicles do not do this because they have a differential (usually some form of limited slip) splitting the power between the two axles, which also have their own differentials.
Yeah, I know this is totally impractical, just wanted to share it.


And for TT540, It would be much easier to make a twin engine half-track.
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TT540 View Post
How about two engines. Think Tank steering.
The guys on carsandcameras built (rather poorly I might add) an AWD go kart with 4 engines. One on each wheel. The front engines pivoted with the steering so they were all just direct chain drive.

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpdingo View Post
Yeah, I know this is totally impractical, just wanted to share it.


And for TT540, It would be much easier to make a twin engine half-track.
The problem with half-tracks is their horrid steering, particularly on soft ground where the tracks really bite in, unless you also have differential braking to supplement the steering like a tractor has

I used to have a Polaris Big Boss 6X6... The old kind with solid rear axles and a fixed chain drive between the two. even without any weight in the Box, you would have to stand up and lean forward over the handlebars to make it go around corners. And that was just with wheels, not tracks. Load up that box to its 500 pound cargo capacity, and you frequently couldn't make it turn at all. And it wrecked everything you drove it across, except pavement (which destroyed the tires in a hurry)

That thing was an unstoppble beast... In a straight line.

It turned a lot better with turf tires on the back and big meaty mudders up front, but that kind of destroyed the point of having a six wheel drive machine.
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:49 PM
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I would think an AWD go kart would probably be left to the electric world. Then the motors can be electronically controlled for the speed differences and there is no problem with open differentials and such, and the torque would launch those suckers fast.

I do agree though, CarsandCameras could have done a much better job, especially like the poorly designed wheel to engine mounts that were throwing chains and one wheel brake. They could have mounted 4 clutch-band brake assemblies like on minibikes with brake cables without an issue. ANd unlike on the minibikes, they wouldn't need to worry about if one chain snapped you lose all breaking, they would have 3 extras.
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Old 07-31-2018, 05:55 PM
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Can't put a clutch band on a torque converter though.
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Old 07-31-2018, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anickode View Post
Can't put a clutch band on a torque converter though.
oh, forgot about that. Put on a jake brake lol.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:41 PM
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Would u joints on the front work? Be way cheaper. I wouldn't use differentials I would use the gas pedal.

I don't see much advantage with 4wd unless hitting the mud and why bother hitting the mud in a go kart? They built a 4wd race kart, not sure if it's any better than just rear wheel.

Me personally I would have it powered to just break the wheels lose when turning so the binding not an issue just let it rip.

I admit, it would be fun to have and if you have time to build it go for it. Times the big one. My friend came over and was shocked where something with only 5" ground clearance and 2 wheel drive can go. Pretty versatile in original form.
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Old 08-01-2018, 11:09 PM
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Fearlessfront on YouTube has some kinda of lifted 4wd kart with a car body if I recall it uses ragbs like you are showing instead of ujoints.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:14 AM
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You mean the Quadractor?
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:21 AM
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How is the quadractor any different from my design except for belts and pulleys instead of discrete axles? It uses the same dual 90 degree drive. one on the engine to go vertical, through the belts, through the downward facing axle and back into the wheels.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:24 AM
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How about (2) engines & articulating?

Cut the kart in 1/2
...reconnect with a "big pivot"

Use (1) engine to drive a front differential
& (1) to drive a rear differential

AWD with limited slip
...should steer "good", excellent actually
& nothing should bind
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpdingo View Post
How is the quadractor any different from my design except for belts and pulleys instead of discrete axles? It uses the same dual 90 degree drive. one on the engine to go vertical, through the belts, through the downward facing axle and back into the wheels.
I don't think it is why I brought it up. It obviously works. I started thinking about 4wd drive karts 40 years ago lol.
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:11 PM
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Wow i've been away too long. Is Tpdingo going to PAFR on here now.

I like the ideas. keep working on them. Just try to stay grounded in reality a little.

You first design looked good. but maybe two clutches? so front and back could spin individuality if needed. ie stuck in the mud. TC would be great on this too.

Does look way overkill though. need to come up with a clean simple design if you want it to work good.

Again so much weight. i have a 90 degree that i picked up for a project (almost as krazy as your idea) it is super heavy!!! but i looked forever to find something that could handle a 5hp engine and it was perfect. looked smaller then i thought and i didn't realize the weight and actual size.

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This has to be at least 20-30lbs. and you have 6 of them. 120-180lbs extra weight. plus axles etc..

Looks like it will work. But it may not move quickly.

I say build it!
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:14 PM
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Most 4wd compact tractors use a silimar sort of setup on the front... Except it's purpose built and all integrated into the axle, so it's not overly bulky, heavy, or silly looking.

The main advantage (and why it's used on tractors) of such a system is your steering angle is not limited by the operational angle of a u joinnt. The wheels can, and nearly do, turn 90 left and right with no interference.
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pRoFiT View Post
Wow i've been away too long. Is Tpdingo going to PAFR on here now.
What is PAFR?

I just come up with these ideas. Who knows if they will come to reality. I might have access to some nice machinery next year. Then I can use some 5 axis robot to make the world's first torsen limited-slip differential for a go kart, which is something that I can see a lot more of a use than my crazy 4WD designs I wanted to share. if I have 3 months and 10,000$ to spare and some welding skills, well then I'll make it.

Anickode:
Well if you do 4 wheel steering you can make that car from Tex Avery's Car of Tomorrow where the car's wheels on both sides turn 90 degrees and parallel park with ease. Now I need to make that street legal and take it to the DMV for road testing .
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:49 PM
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Build a cage, stick your engine and all the important stuff overhead. Then you just have your body getting in the mud. Lol. That was my crazy idea.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
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What is PAFR?
There used to be a member on the forum called Freerunner15. His ideas were...lets say...out there. So if anyone is doing anything similar, its called Pulling a Freerunner PAFR
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