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  #61  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post
TOP SECRET
....

Requirements:
Lightweight (gotta be shipped to the moon or ...)
....
I think you somehow lost track of the foremost requirement

Anyways, while you lost me
(I was imagining something very different when I saw your first few parts)

it still looks nice indeed..
it's no longer lightweight and
no longer accessible in a space suit (as if that matters)
sooo in my mind it somehow lost nearly all of that lunar rover esprit.

Especially knowing you prefere to use heavy pipe over light tube
it's now closer to a mad max style "I drive through your walls, punk" war caged kart
(and no, that should not stop you at all... I'd just suggest a name change here )

just one minor concern brought up again:
that pivot has to carry all the additional cage-pipes as well

rather connect the two and jump up and down on the pivot
to make sure it's up for the task and the occasional 3rd rock encounter as well

'sid

PS if you can drill out the pivot tube a hair, you might want to consider ptfe lined bushings
to ease the movement.
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  #62  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
I think you somehow lost track of the foremost requirement

Anyways, while you lost me
(I was imagining something very different when I saw your first few parts)

it still looks nice indeed..
it's no longer lightweight and
no longer accessible in a space suit (as if that matters)
sooo in my mind it somehow lost nearly all of that lunar rover esprit.

Especially knowing you prefere to use heavy pipe over light tube
it's now closer to a mad max style "I drive through your walls, punk" war caged kart
(and no, that should not stop you at all... I'd just suggest a name change here )

just one minor concern brought up again:
that pivot has to carry all the additional cage-pipes as well

rather connect the two and jump up and down on the pivot
to make sure it's up for the task and the occasional 3rd rock encounter as well

'sid

PS if you can drill out the pivot tube a hair, you might want to consider ptfe lined bushings
to ease the movement.
Thanks
...I appreciate your comments, as always

Yup, I jumped on 'er (just with the 6" pin for now) & didn't see or feel any movement
...but, it's gonna get a bigger one

My "moon buggy" will NEVER see another world (it's just a story line)

What did ya think I was gonna build?
...something "boring" like a (circa 1970's) real rover?

My idea of "lightweight" is to not add a lot of excess (weight) for no good reason.
Like try to use as few pieces as possible
…& try to make as many of them, as I can, "dual purpose"

Heavy Pipe vs. Light Tube
1. Cost- I usually go thru/use over 100' of material (pipe) per year
...pipe ~$1.00 per ft.
...tube is a lot more expensive (like (2) to (4) times more)

2. Tools- I already have a pipe bender
...but, I would have to buy a tubing bender to work with tube (to do it right, anyways)

3. Ease- IMO pipe is easier to work with because the thicker walls give "more structure" to an intersection (joint)
…& its easier to "successfully" weld (more material won't "burn thru" as easily)
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  #63  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:30 AM
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Default Abstract Nomad

More info on the design

I've been studying, designing & planning to build a go kart sized Aerial Nomad for a while now
(an Aerial Nomad is like an "off road" version of an Aerial Atom)
(& yup, it has the Road Warrior look for sure)
...but, it was turning out to be an "overbuilt monstrosity"

Bouncin' ideas around, I was thinkin' ...how about maybe...abstract?

Hmmm...how about a kart that looks like a Nomad
...but, kinda "backbone-ish" where ya ride "on it" instead of "in it"
...but, your kinda "in it" too

Yup, it's still gonna be heavy
...but, I have been tryin' to design it "minimal-istc-aly" where most everything is "dual purpose"

Like where the frame's cross bars also help form the (front & back) of the battery box
...or where the hood bars help support the weight of the batteries

Even the "roll cage" helps support...everything
…& is also the top of the 36" "pivot point" connection

Here's a short video to help explain

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  #64  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:33 AM
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Sorry Kevin, the Nomad is gas!
And the Atom for that matter.
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  #65  
Old 01-28-2020, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTSpeedDemon View Post
Sorry Kevin, the Nomad is gas!
And the Atom for that matter.
...not when I'm done with 'em

…& um...(from the first post in the "Building a go kart sized Aerial Atom" thread)
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=40167

"Ariel Motor Company releases details on their all new, ultra-high performance, range extended, electric sports car project - HIPERCAR.

Standing for HIgh PERformance - CArbon Reduction, the project is destined for full release in 2019 and Ariel production in 2020 alongside the Atom and Nomad. As with other Ariel vehicles, the focus of HIPERCAR is on extreme performance, agility and usability, now coupled with zero and ultra-low emissions. To be available in four wheel drive and two wheel drive variants, HIPERCAR will offer staggering performance utilizing cutting edge technology.

Phase 1 of the project, undertaken by Ariel with partners Equipmake and Delta Motorsport, will demonstrate both 2 wheel drive and 4 wheel drive prototypes and will be shown at the Low Carbon Vehicle (LCV) Show at Millbrook on 6 and 7 September 2017.

HIPERCAR, with a model name yet to be decided, is not just an Ariel production car, destined to be one of the highest performance and sought after vehicles in the world, but also a launchpad of UK developed technology into other niche, medium volume and ultimately high volume production.

The car is a Series Hybrid EV (Electric Vehicle) featuring a 750 Volt, 42 kWh or 56kWh, lithium-ion, cooled and heated battery pack which is charged, when required, by a 35kW micro-turbine range extender, negating any range anxiety issues and making the vehicle independent of any charging infrastructure.

HIPERCAR will be available as a 4 wheel drive or 2 wheel rear drive, full bodied car, the final exterior design of which is to be released at a later date. Based around an aluminium folded and bonded lightweight chassis with full rollover protection, the structure features aluminium front and rear subframes carrying aluminium wishbones and outboard adjustable suspension. Forged or carbon composite wheels carry 265/35/20 front and 325/30/21 rear tyres.

Powered wheels are driven by inboard motors via integral, single speed step-down gearboxes direct to driven wheels, with each individual motor developing 220kW (295bhp) and 450Nm (332 ft lb) of torque.

In 4 wheel drive total power is therefore 880 kW (1,180bhp) and in 2 wheel drive form 440kW (590bhp).

Total torque is 1,800 Nm (1327 ft lb) at motor and 9,900 Nm (7301 ft lb) at the wheels in the 4 wheel drive HIPERCAR and 900Nm (664 ft lb) at motor and 4,950 Nm (3651 ft lb) at the wheels in the 2 wheel drive car.

The vehicle’s electrical architecture consists of high and low voltage systems linked by multiple CAN networks enabling the Powertrain Controller, Vehicle Dynamic Control Interface and Battery Controller to communicate and interact with 12V and safety systems.

Pricing will not be finalised until later in the project. Simon Saunders said, “Like other Ariels we want HIPERCAR to represent excellent value for money for the remarkable performance on offer. It will be an expensive car because of the technology involved but when compared to £1m+ supercars, which it will outperform, it’s going to represent excellent value for money. This is the first true electric supercar that will cross continents, drive to town and lap a race track”.

Preliminary Specifications:

Performance:
•0 – 60 mph: 2.4 secs
•0 – 100 mph: 3.8 secs
•0 – 150 mph: 7.8 secs
•Top speed: 160 mph

Motor:
•Inboard motor per wheel with integrated gearbox and inverter
•220kW / 295bhp per motor
•450Nm / 332Ft-lb per motor
•10,000 RPM

Gearbox:
•Epicyclic Gearbox with driveshaft
•5.5:1 gearbox

Total vehicle power:

4 Wheel drive:
•880kW / 1180bhp
•1,800-9,900Nm / 1,327-7,301Ft-Lbat the wheels

2 Wheel drive:
•440kW / 590bhp
•900-4,950Nm / 664-3,651Ft-Lb at the wheels

Range extender:
•Unleaded gasoline fueled turbine with generator.
•Start up speed 30,000rpm
•120,000rpm running speed
•35kW power generated

Battery:
HIPERCAR/4WD Pack:
•Cell Chemistry : Lithium Ion
•Capacity = 42 kWh
•Nominal Voltage = 680 V
•Peak Current = 1200 Amps
•Liquid cooled.

AMPLiFII/2WD Pack:
•Cell Chemistry : Lithium Ion
•Capacity = 56 kWh
•Nominal Voltage = 648 V
•Peak Current = 1050 Amps
•Liquid cooled.

Instrumentation:
•2 x TFT digital display with multi selectable touch screens

Cooling & HVAC:
•Multi-circuit heated & cooled glycol system for cabin, battery & driveline, incorporating high performance electric coolant pumps & aluminum radiators.
•Front - System 1 – Battery, System 2 – Front inverters, System 3 – Front rotors, System 4 – Front stators, System 6 – Cabin heating, System 7 – Air conditioning
•Rear - System 8 – Rear inverters, System 9 – Rear rotors, System 10 – Rear stators, System 11 – Range extender, charging inverter, DC/DC converter

Chassis:
•Bonded aluminum tub with high strength safety rollover cage. Removable front and rear subframes, incorporating billet machined & anodized aluminum interfaces.

Suspension:
•Billet machined aluminum unequal length double wishbones with Bilstein MDS adjustable motorsport coil over dampers & anti-roll bars front & rear.

Steering:
•Power assisted rack & pinion, 2.25 turns lock to lock
•Reach & rake adjustable steering column
•330mm suede cover sports steering wheel

Braking:
•Front: 370x32mm ventilated grooved discs with 6 piston AP Racing calipers
•Rear: 328x30mm ventilated grooved discs with 4 piston AP Racing calipers.
•Brembo Park Brake calipers.

Wheels:
•Front - 9.5” x 20” Forged alloy or Dymag Boxstrom 7Y carbon hybrid
•Rear - 12.5” x 21” Forged alloy or Dymag Boxstrom 7Y carbon hybrid

Tires:
•Front - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 -265/35/ZR21.
•Rear - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 -325/30/ZR21

Seating:
•Lightweight carbon fiber hybrid adjustable sports seats with alcantara trim.
•Inertia reel seat belts"

...plus, it has cup holders too
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  #66  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post

My "moon buggy" will NEVER see another world (it's just a story line)

What did ya think I was gonna build?
...something "boring" like a (circa 1970's) real rover?

My idea of "lightweight" is to not add a lot of excess (weight) for no good reason.
Like try to use as few pieces as possible
of course it won't, that's not my point..
and frankly I don't thing the original was boring at all..
but true it looks like your everyday twin seat yard kart with fancy hubmotors and a parabolic antenna and the cheapest (looking) lawnchairs ever (in fact the most expensive ones I bet)...

Not adding excess weight means not adding a pointless rollcage/brushguard in my book
that's exactly what I'm talking about

I like the Nomad better than the Atom tbh..
albeit I like on road vehicles more than off road.

aaanyways.. I see that you were "heavily inspired by" the Ariel of course,
and that's fair.. if you're going for the mad max grunty war machine style a Ariel Nomad has.

While the original lunar rover is rather hefty (200++ kg)
it was as light as possible not added a single unnecessary gram of weight
(all the mass is essentially batteries so it serves two purposes)
on the moon it's just 35kg or so .. say ~75lbs

Again, I like the look of your mini buggy .. just not the "lightweight" claim and lunar connection
paired with what the Ariel Nomad represents
(hence me suggesting a rename not a rebuild )
Since motors and batteries already are in the 80lbs range the 75 lunar lbs are out of reach true, but adding another 40 lbs of steel caging for no reason than to mimic an Ariel's appeal *shrugs*

Now, I really think you deserve a tube bender!
you make enough nice stuff to actually make use of one.
And yes, they are expensive and tube is more expensive than pipe.
BUT cutting the weight of every chassis you make in half is well worth it.
it's even far more environmentally friendly that way
(less material used, less weight to move, better mileage with fewer batteries ... yadda yadda)

your craftmanship deserves less "redneck" material IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTSpeedDemon View Post
Sorry Kevin, the Nomad is gas!
And the Atom for that matter.
Sure JT they're gas powered;
it's still the better thing to do on earth as of now.

but combustion engines do not work on the moon too well
the lack of oxygen is tough to argue against,
and carrying a metric ton of it just to burn it in an engine is a rather dumb idea...
especially since the same mass of solar panels could recharge the LRV between missions easily.
so 'lektrick is the correct choice here considering the fictive name of this vehiculum
And yes, I still stick with the theme,
even if I don't think the vehicle still matches it.

like if one attaches a steel blade to a lightsaber handle he'd be a complete moron
if one attaches a less functional but theme matching lit acrylic rod instead
he's just a fan boy and has the better lightsaber in the end

'sid
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  #67  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:26 PM
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See if NASA will let your rover on their Mars testing grounds . You never know....
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  #68  
Old 02-01-2020, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
I think you somehow lost track of the foremost requirement

Anyways, while you lost me
(I was imagining something very different when I saw your first few parts)

it still looks nice indeed..
it's no longer lightweight and
no longer accessible in a space suit (as if that matters)
sooo in my mind it somehow lost nearly all of that lunar rover esprit.

Especially knowing you prefere to use heavy pipe over light tube
it's now closer to a mad max style "I drive through your walls, punk" war caged kart
(and no, that should not stop you at all... I'd just suggest a name change here )
'sid
IMO the Nomad looks like the perfect "moon buggy" (lunar connection)
...but, with all of them bars it would be way too heavy
…& also, nearly inaccessible, with a space suit on

"no longer lightweight": it's supposed to be light weight by design, not in the actual materials
...the "real thing" (if ever built) would be made out of the (more expensive) light weight materials

"accessible": hence the "abstract" design change
...from a "climb in" kart to a "climb on" kart

Keep in mind that this project is (supposed to be) a prototype/concept vehicle
...that is not designed to "actually" enter space
...it's just to test the ideas, design & concepts, here on earth
...& to have a kool lookin' "one of a kind" kart, in the end

I am just playin' around with & exploring different designs (caged kart), systems (dual live axles) & concepts (articulating)

This is the first "articulating/caged/all-wheel-drive" vehicle that I have designed/built so, I was interested in
...the dimensions
...the viability
…& the "actual" functionality

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
of course it won't, that's not my point..
and frankly I don't thing the original was boring at all..
but true it looks like your everyday twin seat yard kart with fancy hubmotors and a parabolic antenna and the cheapest (looking) lawnchairs ever (in fact the most expensive ones I bet)...

Not adding excess weight means not adding a pointless rollcage/brushguard in my book
that's exactly what I'm talking about

I like the Nomad better than the Atom tbh..
albeit I like on road vehicles more than off road.

aaanyways.. I see that you were "heavily inspired by" the Ariel of course,
and that's fair.. if you're going for the mad max grunty war machine style a Ariel Nomad has.

While the original lunar rover is rather hefty (200++ kg)
it was as light as possible not added a single unnecessary gram of weight
(all the mass is essentially batteries so it serves two purposes)
on the moon it's just 35kg or so .. say ~75lbs

Again, I like the look of your mini buggy .. just not the "lightweight" claim and lunar connection
paired with what the Ariel Nomad represents
(hence me suggesting a rename not a rebuild )
Since motors and batteries already are in the 80lbs range the 75 lunar lbs are out of reach true, but adding another 40 lbs of steel caging for no reason than to mimic an Ariel's appeal *shrugs*

And yes, I still stick with the theme,
even if I don't think the vehicle still matches it.
'sid
"not boring":
...it was just a raft/barge with wheels & ugly seats

It just ain't got any "style" to it
...not gonna pick up any "space chicks" in that thing
(& as history tells us, they didn't)

"pointless roll cage":
Why not some extra protection while explorin' some harsh, unforgiving places?

What if ya "roll 'er" in a crater?
...there ain't no "911 emergency service" in space

200kg. (~440 lbs.):
...I'm thinkin' we should be able to beat that

Name change:
...was gonna give 'er the official designation of R1SE (Rover 0ne Surface Explorer)
...but, now thinkin' about ATTACK (All Terrain Tactical Articulating Cycle Kart)
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  #69  
Old 02-01-2020, 02:20 PM
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Default Upper Pivot Pin

Movin' right along (back & down) with the "roll cage"

Pretty simple, just kinda continued the "racing stripe" concept
…brought 'em together @ the "pivot point"
...& added a cross bar

So, far the rear section, even made outta pipe, only weighs in @~13 lbs.
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Old 02-01-2020, 05:36 PM
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This is about how the 36" pivot pin will look
...but, to add the connection for the top junction, I had to cut-out a section of the "roll bar"

It's kool, I replaced it with (2) ~8" x 1 1/4" x 1/8" bars
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Old 02-02-2020, 01:03 AM
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That 36" pin really puts a "cramp" in the seatback
...it's right in the dang way

Hmmm... I was thinkin', how about "splittin' the baby" & just use (2) shorter pins
...but, still have 'em spread over a 36" area

I'm thinkin' that this should provide "nearly" the same strength as a "full length" 36" pin
…but, will allow the seatback to be mounted @ a "more proper" angle too

* no actual babies were harmed
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Old 02-02-2020, 09:50 PM
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Default Upper pivot pin bolt

The shortest 3/4" bolt @ Home Depot is ~3"
...but, I only need one that's ~1 1/4"

I could just cut off the excess
...but, it has these "knarly" threads (that'll tear up our pivot pin bushings) goin' all of the way down the shaft

So, I made my own, that's nice-n-smooth

I just cut a piece of ~1 1/4" off of a 3/4" rod
...then, drilled & tapped it to accept a 5/16" bolt, on each end
…& added some washers to "hold 'er in place"
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Old 02-02-2020, 11:04 PM
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The pivot pin slid in "nice-n-easy"
…added a 3/4" "pivot" washer around the pin, under each side (top & bottom)
…& then, secured 'em in-place with a couple of bolts & "retaining washers"
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Old 02-02-2020, 11:44 PM
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Seems like the only place to really get any bolt of a size you need is to shell out a lot of dough at Fastenal. Other wise yeah, cutting down a bolt to size is the only other alternative.
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Old 02-03-2020, 07:51 AM
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It was ~50* here yesterday

So, I took 'er outside for some more weldin'
…& then, had ta did, lots-n-lots of clean up

Here's a "profile" pic of what we have so far
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  #76  
Old 02-03-2020, 12:12 PM
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Default Articulation Geometry

Workin' on controlin' the "tail"

1.) How far should it swing?
...is there a "too far"?

2.) Is there a proper or necessary distance from the pivot point to the where the steering linkage will connect?
…& on the other end, how do ya figure the proper distance from the steering wheel pivot point to where the steering linkage will connect?

3.) Would it be best for them to be the same?
...or to maybe have the steering end a bit longer, for additional leverage?
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Old 02-03-2020, 11:42 PM
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Looking good so far FA
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Old 02-04-2020, 04:10 AM
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cable pull .. I somehow assumed a rack and pinion steering tbh
with a "drive" shaft going to the back and acting on the swingarm directly
but you know my premade assumptions with this project haven't been too accurate, have they LOOOL.

steering wheel -> steering shaft with beveled gear to a straight horizontal steering shaft (matching beveled gear up front, straight gear at the back) to an ordinary Rack that's fixed to the swingarm.
(rack above the pinion and in front of the pivot)

Oh, post #70, pic #4 ff
you don't wonder why that did cramped up on you while swinging sideways, do you?
I mean the words "straight and perpendicular" are not the first that come to mind
might be the angle of the pic, but the upright rails do not seem to be mirrored either
(left further in and at a different backwards angle) ..

'sid
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  #79  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:22 AM
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Been doin' more research & thinkin'-n-figurin'

An articulated kart steers, from the rear, "kinda" like how an airplane steers
...except, airplanes have to steer (3) ways:
Roll (rotation around the front-to-back axis is called roll)
Pitch (rotation around the side-to-side axis is called pitch)
Yaw (rotation around the vertical axis is called yaw)

Yup, the one we are interested in is Yaw.

"The Rudder Controls Yaw
-on the vertical tail fin, the rudder swivels from side to side, pushing the tail in a left or right direction."

* Interesting info:
"One of the major breakthroughs of the Wright brothers was their ability to control roll in their aircraft. The 1903 Wright Flyer didn’t have ailerons, so roll control was provided by a unique idea they called wing warping. Wilbur hit upon this idea while twisting a cardboard box from a bicycle inner tube as he chatted with a customer in the brothers’ shop. The tips of the wings were twisted (warped) like the box by a series of pulleys and cables."

Here's where I got the info
...they have a kool illustration, showing these concepts
https://howthingsfly.si.edu/flight-d...-pitch-and-yaw


Hmmm...boat's also steer, from the rear too

Thinkin' about this, made me notice/or realize
...if ya steer from the rear, everything works backwards

So, (see pic below) if ya turn the steering wheel toward the right
...it would pull on the left side of the tail or "rudder"
(basically, closing the gap between the kart & the tail, on the left side)
…which would make the kart go or head toward the left

* it clearly states, in the manual, turn right, to go left

Yup, i'm figurin' cable actuated
...maybe, probably just gotta switch the cables around

Found another kool articulated drawing
...don't know what it all means but, it looks kool
Attached Thumbnails
SAM_2165.JPG   1.png  

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Last edited by Functional Artist; 02-06-2020 at 04:45 PM. Reason: fix stuff
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:47 AM
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To use cables, to steer this thing, were gonna need some "cable housing mounting brackets"
(these will mount the cable housings, to the kart)
…& some "cable wire attachment brackets"
(these will connect the inner cable "wire" to the steering shaft & also, to the "tail")

First, we gotta do some figurin'
...where we gonna put 'em?

The "dash" area is only ~8" wide
…& I kinda don't want the steering linkage stickin' out from the sides
(movin' parts with pinch points-n-all)

But, to stay within that 8", there would only be ~4" of "pitman arm" stickin' out from each side of the steering shaft
…& to attach, to the "tail" @ only ~4" from the pivot didn't seem like it would give us very much leverage

So, I'm thinkin', on the "tail" we gotta go a bit more (let's say at least 5 1/2")

Attaching further from the pivot point would (of course) give us more leverage
...but, that requires more "cable travel" that we really don't have available in the front

I'ma gonna give this a try
…& then, see how difficult it is to pull the cables just "by hand"
Attached Thumbnails
SAM_2206.JPG   SAM_2207.JPG  

SAM_2208.JPG   SAM_2210.JPG  

SAM_2212.JPG  
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