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Old 11-05-2018, 10:22 PM
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Default clutch or torque converter for race style fun cart?

Greetings, all:
Here is the short version of the question. What are thoughts on installing a torque converter on a race kart being used as a fun kart?

Here's the full story with some specifics on the kart and why: Our family fall break plan this year was to (out of nowhere) get a go kart and goof off with it under the ruse of "it will help the kids learn to drive". For better, or worse, I picked a Bintelli S1 kart. I don't know of any local, non-oval, tracks so we ran around some vacant parking lots every chance we got over fall break and had a blast. An unanticipated benefit is that it has provided tons of time-wasting potential tinkering and thinking about what more could be done with it next. One deficiency I want to address is slow acceleration from standstill. But the real downer is the trouble with the centrifugal clutch on hills. My thought is that putting in a torque converter would solve these without much downside. We would then be able to ride more from the house and take the hills of driveway and neighborhood with ease.
I know it can be done, but with what effort? I don't want to get into welding. I've attached a pic of what looks like a Bintelli XR kart with a torque converter installed. Compared to the pics of XR karts online, it appears they had to move the engine back (and maybe up) to get the drive pulley out of the seat. The existing clutch is a tight fit where it's at now.

I was thinking something like this adjustable mounting plate would let me position the engine where a 30 series torque converter would fit. https://www.bmikarts.com/Adjustable-...c_p_10542.html
Or I could use the same plate and run the sprocket on the outside of the driven pulley as shown in this thread.
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12754
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...-35-55_165.jpg

Thanks for the assistance.
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Bintelli XR with CVT-2.JPG   S1 clutch position.JPG  

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  #2  
Old 11-05-2018, 10:26 PM
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If you aren't seriously racing and need some hill climbing power, get a T/C all the way! The off the line acceleration vs a clutch is just beautiful and a cheap one for 52$ from eBay, well it would be foolish not to get one.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:46 PM
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Are any of those pics your kart? Installing a TC would give you better performance over a CC, but if your gearing is bad, it is never going to be the shining light you are hoping for. What is the gearing that you currently have?
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:53 PM
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the black kart is one I saw of a similar model someone installed a TC on. the orange one is the same model and setup as mine, a snip from the Bintelli web site.
CC sprocket = 18, axle = 55, rear wheel = 11x7.1-5
it does OK once the clutch engages and I have a 12 tooth CC I could install to see what the difference is.
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Old 11-06-2018, 05:08 PM
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Yeah the T/C should come with like a 11 or 12. T/C with ~4.5 ratio and 11" tires should be fine.
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Old 11-06-2018, 05:42 PM
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What I'm interested in opinions on are methods to reposition the engine for a TC to fit.
https://www.bmikarts.com/Adjustable-...c_p_10542.html
Also, running the TC sprocket on either side of the driven pulley as salon in this thread but without the extra support bearing. http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12754

One other thing I should have linked before. I thought this setup was neat to place the rear sprocket between the pair of right side bearings on this concept LEVO LO206. https://www.facebook.com/LEVO-SPEC-268279887094479/
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:34 PM
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How about pics of your kart to start....
Then we can start to suggest what to do with it....
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:07 PM
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Running the sprocket outboard on the driveN will require some kind of extra support. The aluminum TC plate is likely to break otherwise or flex and throw chains.

One option might be to get a jackshaft engine plate, put the driveN on that, and then run an outboard sprocket (where the axle sprocket is between the wheel and the axle bearing). That's what I've been thinking about for my Top Kart. It was built for a two-stroke with outboard clutch, but I want to install a 4 cycle with TC.
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2018, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65ShelbyClone View Post
Running the sprocket outboard on the driveN will require some kind of extra support. The aluminum TC plate is likely to break otherwise or flex and throw chains.

One option might be to get a jackshaft engine plate, put the driveN on that, and then run an outboard sprocket (where the axle sprocket is between the wheel and the axle bearing). That's what I've been thinking about for my Top Kart. It was built for a two-stroke with outboard clutch, but I want to install a 4 cycle with TC.
A jackshaft engine plate like this? https://www.bmikarts.com/Clutch-Moun...ft_p_5380.html
I do have a keyway on the outboard side of the axle bearings so I could move the axle sprocket over there. But I think my angled motor mount has too much meat on the seat side of the engine to accommodate a driven pully (or belt) when the jackshaft is at the bottom plane of the engine. See the picture of the orange frame kart in my first post.
My thought was a standard TC backplate kit might be rotated upwards at an angle so the driven pully and belt operate above the motor mount.
I still think I'll need the adjustable motor mount plate to position the engine better back and to the right to get the drive pulley to fit between the engine and the seat. If your TopKart has movable seat stays it may be easier to move the seat in your case.

It could be that I have to order a part at a time. Maybe get a TC first and lay it out, measure, and decide which route to go after that. Sounds like I've got my Christmas presents and winter plans.
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-gar View Post
A jackshaft engine plate like this? https://www.bmikarts.com/Clutch-Moun...ft_p_5380.html
I was thinking more like these:
https://id3528.securedata.net/test.b...roducts_id=653
https://www.joesracing.com/series-19...aft-mount.html

I didn't overlook the cost. They are more for ideas than "hey, buy this."

Quote:
If your TopKart has movable seat stays it may be easier to move the seat in your case.
If only it did. Someone put a small seat on mine and bent the seat stays to fit the seat instead of using spacers. I bent them back to install an adult seat and that was a job.
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Old 11-08-2018, 06:01 PM
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I ordered the TC kit and adjustable plate last night. We'll see how it works out for me. A picture showing the lack of space between engine and seat is attached (gah -- sideways). I'll have to modify or remove the existing chain guard and install selected parts of the TC cover instead. We'll see how it goes. Wish me luck!
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:36 AM
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if going above stage 2 mods, go with clutch. the torque converters dont like going above 5000-5500 rpm.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:06 PM
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Keep in mind that there are also offset flat and angled 4cycle mounts that move the engine further outboard if needed. That's what I'll have to use on mine what with trying to fit a Tecumseh HM100 and TC where a little KT100 used to be.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65ShelbyClone View Post
Keep in mind that there are also offset flat and angled 4cycle mounts that move the engine further outboard if needed. That's what I'll have to use on mine what with trying to fit a Tecumseh HM100 and TC where a little KT100 used to be.
I think the adjustable plate will work out to be the most cost efficient for me and allow for the same adjustments, if not more. The Bintelli kart has a goofy frame spacing also, 88mm??? There's not anything wrong with the existing mount, I'll drill some holes in it to place the adjustable plate and start sliding it around to see what different positions look like. Moving it too far outboard will get me into the third bearing pretty quick with the standard TC setup. Going backwards and up looks possible but it would be making a springboard for the engine. Then there's the possibility that I could put the sprocket on the other side of the driven pulley. There was another thread (can't find it right now) about someone saying they have been running like that without issue. Yes, I understand the additional stress caused by this setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KartFab View Post
if going above stage 2 mods, go with clutch. the torque converters dont like going above 5000-5500 rpm.
Noted.... I don't know how fast mine will want to spin after I go from the 18 tooth clutch I have now to the 12 on the stock TC unit, but I think over 5500 is going to happen. I may have a failed experiment with some spare parts for ebay on my hands when I'm done...

Last edited by c-gar; 11-09-2018 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Typos and clarity
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:43 PM
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Here is the post I was thinking about that mentioned the placement of TC sprocket outside of the driven pulley as feasible but with possible weaknesses. http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=38812

Anyway, my TC and mounting plate should show up tomorrow so I'll have a cold, rainy weekend to mess around with it. I've been searching the forums and reading up on threads discussing gearing options, CCs vs TCs, hp, torque, modifications, theoretical physics, etc.

I'm thinking the TC is not worth putting on if I have to make any crazy, irreversible modifications. But if it does fit... I think the TC with the supplied 12 tooth sprocket is going to provide very respectable acceleration all the way to 40 mph before 5500 rpm. "axle = 55, rear wheel = 11x7.1-5" Based on how that works out, the jackshaft sprocket will be changed out to suit my, and my kids, acceleration and top end tastes. ((it's all about teaching the kids to drive, remember?))

If it doesn't fit, the TC will be going back to trade for other parts. In the interim I'll bolt on the 12 tooth cheapy clutch to see how that feels and what RPM the engine spins to around the neighborhood.
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:14 PM
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Parts box was delivered this morning -- wahoo! Opened everything up and this TC thing is much bigger than I thought. It's going to be a tight squeeze, even moving stuff around things may get frustrating.
I took a baseline run on the neighborhood street with stock gearing setup 55/18, 10.7"OD tires for comparison later. There wasn't enough room to get to top speed, but I was up to 41mph at ~4000rpm, just like the spreadsheet says. I'm hoping the 12 tooth sprocket will let it get up to more RPM -- faster. If the TC has a 0.9:1 final ratio that will be ~40mph at 5500rpm.
It's time to start taking pictures to document this nonsense.
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:56 PM
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It's not as easy as I thought it would be, but not as hard as it could be either. I tore everything down last night and got frustrated when everything started bumping together during the first few attempts at a test fit. This afternoon I figured out that the engine has to be moved about 9 inches back and 2 inches up along the plane of the normal 15 motor mount. That's the spot where the TC is on the black frame cart in the first post.
That puts the engine mount almost right above the pair of bearings on the rear axle. I'm thinking of sketching something up similar to an Azusa swing mount to be secured by the existing bearing hanger bolts. The front side of it would have angle iron or box tubing to bolt into holes in the original engine mount. I laid everything out this afternoon to get the placement (free from any interferences this time) to take pictures but left them on the camera and will post later.
A 12 tooth clutch will be installed in the meantime until I can get parts measured, cut and welded to create the new mount.
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Old 11-12-2018, 09:40 PM
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Here is the engine placement BEFORE...
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IMG_2026.jpg   IMG_2030.jpg  

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Old 11-12-2018, 09:49 PM
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Cleared everything off and tried out the torque converter on top of the adjustable plate and stock motor mount...
I naively thought that it only needed a few inches over and back on the existing mount. Boy was I wrong. Moving everything to the right far enough to get the drive pulley out of the seat puts the driven pulley and sprockets in bearing territory.
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IMG_2033.jpg   IMG_2034.jpg  

IMG_2036.jpg   IMG_2037.jpg  

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Old 11-12-2018, 10:00 PM
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Pardon the scrap wood I used to get to a placement that works. Essentially, the engine needs to be mounted at least two inches over the rear axle bearings for this to work. I'll have to re-run fuel lines and kill switch wiring -- probably need a longer throttle cable too.
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IMG_2055.jpg   IMG_2057.jpg  

IMG_2058.jpg   IMG_2065.jpg  

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