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Old 04-28-2017, 02:21 PM
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Default Swiss Hutless Rondo Build

Long time no activity here from me... but i finally got some time for hobbies and on-going projects .. School is nearing to an end , time for college

But , i thought id share the build process with you guys

So , progress has been very slow mainly because i had very little time left over from school and what not , and didnt have the $$ to get the missing parts .

The convenience of having a known brand of gokart chassis , also makes it very expenisve , but you get the benfit of straight bolt-on parts .

So , started by tearing down the chassis , which i actually did last year and then just fiddled around with it . But only recently did i get around to stripping everything from it , and giving it a sandblast and a coat of primer to stop rust from coming back . Tho will keep it in primer till i get all the parts , bolt em on , make it run , then tear it down and paint it all up .
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:27 PM
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The engine i will be using is a KT100 Yamaha , with a centrifugal clutch and an e-start !

Puts around 17HP stock , so should be enough for 6:1 gearing . Max RPM is around 12-13k as far as i know , tho im hoping to bring out a bit more out of it .

Currently im in talks from a lad in the US , hwo specializes in KT100s , and im buying gaskets which i need in order to rebuild the engine . Piston is in very good condition , crank and bearings aswell. It looks like it was taken good care of . Considering i got it for 310$ , shipped from Uk to Croatia ... id say its a bargain .

Some pictures of the Engine itself , and the rebuild process of the Walbro WB24 carb .
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:31 PM
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some more pics .. got a nice fuel tank that sits below the steering wheel , engine mount and clamps , and a used master cylinder for the brakes , the one that came with the kart was shot .

And what the wheel hub looks like after sandblasting . And the difference between the front and rear tires ..
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:19 AM
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Some parts that just came in today
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  #5  
Old 07-11-2017, 08:09 AM
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Looking good
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:08 PM
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Starting to put it together..
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewbCarter View Post
The engine i will be using is a KT100 Yamaha , with a centrifugal clutch and an e-start !

Puts around 17HP stock , so should be enough for 6:1 gearing .
WHAT?? NOOOOO

nonono.. 6:1 will destroy your clutch and likely your engine!

the clutch engages at what? 4k? 4.5k?
that'd be ~25 mph engagement speed on the wheels.. no chance in accomplishing that!

10:1 maybe.. I'd say closer to 12:1 tbh

I'll check what setup my rotax had last time it was competetive racing...
but IIRC something like a 8 or 9 tooth on the crankshaft (219 chain) and 105 on the axle
(~ 12:1)

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Old 07-16-2017, 05:26 AM
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WHAT?? NOOOOO

nonono.. 6:1 will destroy your clutch and likely your engine!

the clutch engages at what? 4k? 4.5k?
that'd be ~25 mph engagement speed on the wheels.. no chance in accomplishing that!

10:1 maybe.. I'd say closer to 12:1 tbh

I'll check what setup my rotax had last time it was competetive racing...
but IIRC something like a 8 or 9 tooth on the crankshaft (219 chain) and 105 on the axle
(~ 12:1)

'sid
Well that is what i was advised by the lads that race these . According to them , these clutches slip at 8-9k and are only fully locked by 10k + RPM .

And the model i have is supposedly a wet clutch , so they say it will work. And the sprocket on the clutch is not changeable , so im stuck with what i have at the moment .
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Old 07-16-2017, 06:40 AM
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engagement at 8k... will be even WORSE with a 6:1 ratio!!

we talk about a wheel speed of about 50 mph...
at the time the clutch tries to engage.

I perfectly know what you are trying, but it won't work this kart cannot go 100mph it can't; (100 km/h yes certainly.. 100mph NOPE!)
don't try..
since that can cost you a perfectly nice KT100...

Whoever told you you could is a moron, an idiot or the biggest A55HOLE on this planet, since he just told you to smack your KT100 with a 10lbs sledge hammer going at 50mph!

Be my guest, your engine but be prepared to at least buy a new clutch maybe a new crank case for your engine, a new piston and crank...
heck a new engine really

find pictures on the internet of a KT100 setup (with chain and sprockets)
see what the people run...
I'll be in my garage in a few hrs and count the teeth (well read the toothcount from the sprocket that is )
have a pic for now:
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yes it's a rotax not a yamaha, still 100cc two stroke air cooled...
17k rpm or so ~16 hp (anywhere from 13 to 20 depends on the exhaust and jetting really)

And that kart is in fact a competetive racing kart, it even won several times (no, not with me in it )

here some front sprockets:
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(see how tiny they are?)
and some rears:
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I'll be back in a ffew with real world numbers, not some 100mph wet dream shirt some douchebags told you to use...

'sid

PS I may sound rude, my apologies... this engine you have there is great, the ratio you're talking about is likely going to ruin it... that makes me mad. and I'm furious that some idiot told you it'd work!

[EDIT]
Okay, so read my sprockets.. highest ratio 8.2:1 on my kart (9->74) lowest ~10:1 (9->89)
installed on the pic 9.4:1 (9->85)

it's a direct drive though (no clutch) means it moves as soon as the engine runs,
also means no engagement speed of course .. so no speed jerk at clutch engagement.

And while this can be interpreted in both ways this thing idles at around 2500 rpms or so,
and when you're pushed and the engine takes over the smack in the back is still significant
(the same smack the engine gets on the crank mind you)
Anyways... yes I overshot and you can gear higher than 12:1 obviously
I'd still don't think you should gear anywhere 6:1

But: find pics and real world numbers (in other forums perhaps...) see what other KT100s are set up with (pics if possible)... don't take random guys word only, even if it sounds nice it might still be a huge mistake.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
engagement at 8k... will be even WORSE with a 6:1 ratio!!

we talk about a wheel speed of about 50 mph...
at the time the clutch tries to engage.

I perfectly know what you are trying, but it won't work this kart cannot go 100mph it can't; (100 km/h yes certainly.. 100mph NOPE!)
don't try..
since that can cost you a perfectly nice KT100...

Whoever told you you could is a moron, an idiot or the biggest A55HOLE on this planet, since he just told you to smack your KT100 with a 10lbs sledge hammer going at 50mph!

Be my guest, your engine but be prepared to at least buy a new clutch maybe a new crank case for your engine, a new piston and crank...
heck a new engine really

find pictures on the internet of a KT100 setup (with chain and sprockets)
see what the people run...
I'll be in my garage in a few hrs and count the teeth (well read the toothcount from the sprocket that is )
have a pic for now:
Attachment 86512
yes it's a rotax not a yamaha, still 100cc two stroke air cooled...
17k rpm or so ~16 hp (anywhere from 13 to 20 depends on the exhaust and jetting really)

And that kart is in fact a competetive racing kart, it even won several times (no, not with me in it )

here some front sprockets:
Attachment 86513
(see how tiny they are?)
and some rears:
Attachment 86514

I'll be back in a ffew with real world numbers, not some 100mph wet dream shirt some douchebags told you to use...

'sid

PS I may sound rude, my apologies... this engine you have there is great, the ratio you're talking about is likely going to ruin it... that makes me mad. and I'm furious that some idiot told you it'd work!
Well , im a noob regarding these big racing 2strokes , i have expereince with small ones so not rude , i see it as helpful advice .

Im talking to a very friendly lad from Switzerland , hwo is expert on these engines , and he confirms that i will need 8:1 or higher to have any decent results , without damaging the clutch .

And im yet to find a 35mm axle and bearings ... so till i find those , no gearing will work .

As of speed , im not expecting much . It isnt exactly a powerful engine , so ...

But still , thanks for the advice Sid .
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:06 AM
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35??
why so small..
50mm is a std racing kart axle for karts like these...
40mm I only ever seen these on jr karts..
35mm is rain setup [or bambine size] (to give the rear more flex)

you find all of these on racing kart shops outside the US
(US shops tend to stick with the imperial stuff more often than not)

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Old 07-16-2017, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
35??
why so small..
50mm is a std racing kart axle for karts like these...
40mm I only ever seen these on jr karts..
35mm is rain setup [or bambine size] (to give the rear more flex)

you find all of these on racing kart shops outside the US
(US shops tend to stick with the imperial stuff more often than not)

'sid
The chassis is a 1994 Swiss Hutless Rondo , and as far as im told by SH Specialists , it was an "experimental" chassis which didnt see alot of success , so most of them were scrapped meaning this one is quite rare .

Sadly , that is not where the "bad" story ends . The axle is 35mm originally , meaning everything on the rear is sized for a 35mm axle . The wheel hubs are 35mm , the sprocket and disc carriers are 35mm and the actual bearing carriers are sized for 35mm axle + the meant bearings .

The chassis fisically cannot accept a bigger axle without machining parts of the rear end .

Also , because its so **** rare , i had people requesting upwards of 200 euros for 3x bearings and the axle ... So i guess im screwed unless i find one thats straight for cheap .

EDIT : So if i machined the rear end , id need to get all new wheel hubs , sprocket and disc carrier , bearing carriers etc ... Just the money i dont have atm , and if i did i have id rather put it into new tires or into the engine .
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:45 AM
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The chassis is a 1994 Swiss Hutless Rondo , and as far as im told by SH Specialists , it was an "experimental" chassis which didnt see alot of success , so most of them were scrapped meaning this one is quite rare .

Sadly , that is not where the "bad" story ends . The axle is 35mm originally , meaning everything on the rear is sized for a 35mm axle . The wheel hubs are 35mm , the sprocket and disc carriers are 35mm and the actual bearing carriers are sized for 35mm axle + the meant bearings .

The chassis fisically cannot accept a bigger axle without machining parts of the rear end .

Also , because its so **** rare , i had people requesting upwards of 200 euros for 3x bearings and the axle ... So i guess im screwed unless i find one thats straight for cheap .

EDIT : So if i machined the rear end , id need to get all new wheel hubs , sprocket and disc carrier , bearing carriers etc ... Just the money i dont have atm , and if i did i have id rather put it into new tires or into the engine .

I doubt you'd need to machine anything..

35mm axles are not rare or extraordinary at all.
and frankly.. while 30mm are more common nowadays for rain setups.

IIRC my brother in law still has a 35mm setup swiss hutless rotting under his porch
and it's been his rain kart.
Not just a few kart racers have either a complete second kart setup with 35mm (or 30mm) axle or a axle kit in the back of their van for heavy rain on race day.

swiss hutless never made any senior kart which a axle restriction to my knowledge.
it'd be nearly impossible to make a casssette holder that ONLY accepts 35mm cassettes to be honest.

bambinis perhaps, jr unlikely.. senior I'd bet a beer that they didn't
and frankly your cassette retainers look EXACTLY like mine (50mm axle)

Anyways, 200 Euro for a complete axle kit isn't to bad (for a 50mm axle)
an axle is ~60, three bearings ~40, 100 for four hubs (two wheel hubs plus disc and sprocket) and another ~40 for the bearing cassettes makes 240 about'ish...

35mm is even cheaper (being smaller) a bearing costs less than 12 bucks, a bearing retainer 6 (pressed steel.. can't seem to find a CNC'ed aluminium retainer... but they're around 12 for 30 or 40 mm so I'd say the same for 35mm)
an axle ~50 hubs again around ~25 each (no matter if wheel disc or sprocket really)
makes 210 in total (all new of course)

Anyways, you surely can swap to a larger axle.
but the 100 bucks for new hubs where you have 35mm hubs already might justify keeping the rain setup.
everything (axle and bearings) can be found even on mfgsupply.
although a bit more expensive than they would be in europe.. but that's how it goes right?

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Old 07-16-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
I doubt you'd need to machine anything..

35mm axles are not rare or extraordinary at all.
and frankly.. while 30mm are more common nowadays for rain setups.

IIRC my brother in law still has a 35mm setup swiss hutless rotting under his porch
and it's been his rain kart.
Not just a few kart racers have either a complete second kart setup with 35mm (or 30mm) axle or a axle kit in the back of their van for heavy rain on race day.

swiss hutless never made any senior kart which a axle restriction to my knowledge.
it'd be nearly impossible to make a casssette holder that ONLY accepts 35mm cassettes to be honest.

bambinis perhaps, jr unlikely.. senior I'd bet a beer that they didn't
and frankly your cassette retainers look EXACTLY like mine (50mm axle)

Anyways, 200 Euro for a complete axle kit isn't to bad (for a 50mm axle)
an axle is ~60, three bearings ~40, 100 for four hubs (two wheel hubs plus disc and sprocket) and another ~40 for the bearing cassettes makes 240 about'ish...

35mm is even cheaper (being smaller) a bearing costs less than 12 bucks, a bearing retainer 6 (pressed steel.. can't seem to find a CNC'ed aluminium retainer... but they're around 12 for 30 or 40 mm so I'd say the same for 35mm)
an axle ~50 hubs again around ~25 each (no matter if wheel disc or sprocket really)
makes 210 in total (all new of course)

Anyways, you surely can swap to a larger axle.
but the 100 bucks for new hubs where you have 35mm hubs already might justify keeping the rain setup.
everything (axle and bearings) can be found even on mfgsupply.
although a bit more expensive than they would be in europe.. but that's how it goes right?

'sid
Well , thats what i got by inspecting the thing ... id like to stay on the 35 just because i already have all the parts that go with it. I was lucky to get them for cheap .

Now waiting on the engine gaskets and seals , and probably a piston so i can give it a nice refresh , the carb i already rebuilt .

I have a video of it running without an exhaust , i think i woke up half of the city block that morning
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:55 AM
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Todays progress
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:59 AM
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More pictures ...

So far so good , except some minor stuff . I know it doesnt look good as it is , but this is just for testing purposes to see if and how everything fits .. when i completely assemble it , then its into parts again for the paintjob it needs
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:11 AM
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Found some bolts and used em as handy pedal stops
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:43 AM
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coming together nicely...
88T sprocket sounds good too
(that's also 219 chain right? otherwise you'll run into clearance issues)

Now a bit of elbow grease for the chrome parts and some paint
and you're done.
keep in mind to put sacrificial bolts in all threads and to tape all bearings and grommets, and stuff.. otherwise that paintjob will cost you some precious nerves afterwards

I see you blasted the caliper as well.. I hope you taped the piston to prevent the abbrasive from eating the seal

Those are some big bearing retainers you have there... that looks bigger than just 70mm ID to me..
you sure that's for a 35mm axle? those look just as big as mine... just saying

72mm ID takes 35mm axles,
80mm ID takes 40mm and 50mm axles with low profile bearings,
90mm ID just 50mm axles

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Old 07-17-2017, 07:45 AM
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Why not take the bearing you need to an electric motor shop... Mostlikely will have that or a bearing dealer.
If its hard to find at the kart shop, then he just doesn't want to sell it anymore... Bearing guy will have it as its his business...
Be sure to bring it in to see and measure it.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:08 AM
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coming together nicely...
88T sprocket sounds good too
(that's also 219 chain right? otherwise you'll run into clearance issues)

Now a bit of elbow grease for the chrome parts and some paint
and you're done.
keep in mind to put sacrificial bolts in all threads and to tape all bearings and grommets, and stuff.. otherwise that paintjob will cost you some precious nerves afterwards

I see you blasted the caliper as well.. I hope you taped the piston to prevent the abbrasive from eating the seal

Those are some big bearing retainers you have there... that looks bigger than just 70mm ID to me..
you sure that's for a 35mm axle? those look just as big as mine... just saying

72mm ID takes 35mm axles,
80mm ID takes 40mm and 50mm axles with low profile bearings,
90mm ID just 50mm axles

'sid
Calipers are blasted , but i cleaned them out some time ago , so to be sure i cleaned them out again today and put new seals on the piston . Also , one of the calipers isnt even hooked up yet , since i dont have the short part of the brake line that connects the two .

For all the small parts , and even chrome ones i have a nice solution , i think you will find it interesting aswell .

For other stuff , i need to make an adapter for the steering wheel , and some sort of bracket on it to hold the tachometer and start / shutdown pushbuttons

---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mckutzy View Post
Why not take the bearing you need to an electric motor shop... Mostlikely will have that or a bearing dealer.
If its hard to find at the kart shop, then he just doesn't want to sell it anymore... Bearing guy will have it as its his business...
Be sure to bring it in to see and measure it.

Thanks for the tip , but there is no shop like that near my place .. il search around on the net but im not sure .

Still , good to see people are interested in the build .
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