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Old 01-28-2017, 12:22 AM
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Default Hemi Predator Build #2

CAMSHAFT

NR 285-0211
http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/200cam-285.htm

0.285" Lift
250 degree duration (at 0.050")
102 Intake Center Line
111 LSA
7000 RPM

Camshaft, 285-0211: Small track cam for serious torque
Requires 11:1 or more compression ratio
Requires 26lb or more valve springs.

This cams likes big carbs and big ports. Will easily make 20 hp when used with correct combination. Best with 24 mm Mikuni, big valves, and high compression. Honda blocks must be clearanced to install.

---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 AM ----------

This is the best post I found about Honda / Clone / Predator Camshaft specs.... I shared before, but here it is again.
It originally came from Russel at NR

https://karting.4cycle.com/showthrea...cam-logic-more

"
There are four important numbers on a cam. ICL (intake center line), LS (lobe separation), duration, and lift.

Don’t worry too much about lift. The Honda head (i.e. port design) does not respond much once the lift at the valve exceeds about .350. A .275 lift cam with 1.3 rockers will achieve this. We have spent a lot of time on the flow bench, and unless the head is radically changed you will not see much gain past .350 lift.

Duration is another story. This is how long the valve is kept open. Hondas love lots of duration. We have run as much as 300 at .050, but 260 seems to be a good compromise better power and tractability. As duration goes up, so does the rpm at which max power is made. At the same time idle quality goes down along with low-end torque. An engine with a lot of duration will scream and make lots of power but can be a dog off the corners and/or trying to get started, not to mention idles at 3000 rpm.

Typically 210 to 220 makes for high torque motors that start and stop a lot, use low rpm stall/clutches, and see a wide range in operating rpm. These motors will peak somewhere between 4500 and 5500, and will pull to 6500.

250 to 260 are for the 7000+ motors that don’t see RPM much below 5000.

Needless to say, 230 to 240 cams fall in the middle.

One interesting thing about duration, the smaller the carb, the more duration can help a motor. With small carbs, usually the cam/ports will flow more than the carb can deliver. The only way to improve power is the hold the valve open longer. In other words, where going from a 240 to a 260 cam on a motor running a 28 mm Mikuni will only show a 10% improvement in peak HP, doing the same on a motor with a stock carb can show a 20% improvement.

Almost as critical as duration, is the ICL. This is the intake opening and will range from 98 to 116 degrees. It is also referred to retard or advance in the cam. This determines the where the peak torque will occur. Most cams fall in the 102 to 110 range. FYI: Honda 160s are around 105 and GX200s around 110 from the factory (retarded for emissions).
A cam with a 102 will have power range/peak around 1000 to 2000 rpm lower than a cam with 110 ICL. It will also have considerable more low-end torque and will pull a lot harder off the corners. For very, very small tracks this can translate into significantly lower lap times despite having lower HP. For Boats, winch boarding, rock climbing ATVs, these cams can make huge differences. Depending on the application, it is possible to stall a motor that has a high ICL, whereas advancing the cam produces great results.

At the other extreme, a cam with 114 ICL might peak in the 9000-rpm range. On a large track (1/2 mile) where the rpms never get below 7500, it would be unbeatable. However, you would need a clutch that engages at 5000+ just to get moving. Not always fun for a street toy.
The other important number is the LS (lob separation), which determines the amount of overlap. These will range from 100 to 115, but most cams will be in the 106 to 110 range. As a general rule the lower the number, the more HP, but the with a smaller power band. However, the wider (less overlap) the LS, the more dynamic compression a motor can build. For high compression engines, overlap is needed to bleed off compression at lower RPMs preventing detonation. Anything over 11 to 1 should be using a 106 to 107 LS. For lower compressions, it depends on how wide a power band is desired. If you want a power band of only a few 1000 rpm (typical for oval tracks), then go with a narrow LS, however if your rpm ranges from 2000 to 7000 (road courses), then you may want a wide LS.

The duration, ICL, and LS all work together and changing any or all of these numbers can have a significant impact on how a motor performs.

One final note, what works on the dyno does not always work on the track and vice versa. What works great in a Mini Bike may not be the best for a Kart, a dirt track cam is not going to be the same as a paved cam, etc, etc.

www.nr-racing.com

The part number of our cams tells the ICL and LS. The first number is the lift, the second set is the CL, and the last set is the LS. For example

280 0207 .280 lift 102 ICL 107 LS
252 0607 .252 lift 106 ICL 107 LS
252 0207 .252 lift 102 ICL 107 LS
252 0211 .252 lift 102 ICL 111 LS
274 0607 .274 lift 106 ICL 107 LS"


---------- Post added at 01:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------

CYLINDER HEAD

NR Racing Hemi Head
http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/headhemi.htm

Lightweight Stainless Steel Valves
28mm Intake (vs 27 stock)
25mm Exhuast (stock size)
Fully Ported and Bead Blasted
Milled 0.040" (should be around 17.5cc - 17.75cc)
Aluminum retainers and Split Keeper
3 angle valve job
26 lb springs (37 lb Valve Springs if I rev to 7500 RPM)
Lash Caps

Stock Rocker Arms (Don't think I can fit 1.2 Rockers and keep the compression I want with the Hemi Head without cutting valve reliefs in the piston EDIT: or welding the chamber.)

---------- Post added at 01:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 AM ----------

PUSHRODS

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/cmpr-55.htm
x(2)

CrMo
3/16"
5.44" Long (vs 5.54" stock) I think either will work


"Heavy Duty Chrome Moly Push rods. Considerably stiffer than stock. Use with all HD springs. Capable of 10,000 RPM +

ALL PUSH RODS ARE SOLD INDIVIDUALLY. YOU MUST ORDER 2 PER MOTOR


Select Length based on the following.

GX200, 160, and 6.5 Chinese OHVs
5.260 Stock Length; Use with stamped Rocker Arms
5.160 (-.100); Use with Billet & Roller Rocker Arms
5.110 (-.150); Use with Billet/Roller Rockers along with extensive milling (>.065")
5.440 (+.180); Allows use of 160 Lifters in 200 blocks to reduce valve train weight. Reduces combined lifter/Pushrod weight by approx 7%. Use with stamped Rocker Arms
5.340 (+.080); Allows use of 160 Lifters in 200 blocks with Billet or Roller Rockers.
212 Predators (Old Style)
5.200; Stock length
5.110 Use with Billet & Roller Rockers
212 Predators (Hemi Head)
5.544 Stock Length, most applications
5.440 (-.100) use with extensive milling
5.260 use with NR Racing Hemi Rollers
5.160 use with NR Racing Hemi Rollers and heads milled .065 or more, also with large base circle cams.

Also available in unfinished. Must be cut to length. Includes tube and two ends

All push rods are sold individually.

Note: Due to differences in cam base circles, deck heights, head milling, gasket thickness, etc. actual push rod length can vary. Pushrods are sold for the experienced engine builder.
We recommend you assemble the motor first and then determine correct pushrod length. One of the best ways is to grind a stock pushrod until you get correct geometry, measure, and order one closest to that size."
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  #2  
Old 01-28-2017, 12:27 AM
gman3850 gman3850 is offline
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For the head, there is a guy over on the karting forums that welds up hemi heads and gives them much love. You would be around the same cost as that head with lvl the goodies and you would make more power.
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  #3  
Old 01-28-2017, 12:34 AM
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CONNECTING ROD

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/6254-6256-6252.htm

+0.020"
ARC 6256


PISTON

FlatTop
Stock
70mm

CRANKSHAT

55mm (stock)

---------- Post added at 01:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gman3850 View Post
For the head, there is a guy over on the karting forums that welds up hemi heads and gives them much love. You would be around the same cost as that head with lvl the goodies and you would make more power.
That is what I'm talking about!!!
I guess that is the issue with these Hemi Heads. Needed to be welded up to make good compression.

Bobs 4 Cycle Karting?
Brad Hill???
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob58o View Post
CONNECTING ROD

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/6254-6256-6252.htm

+0.020"
ARC 6256


PISTON

FlatTop
Stock
70mm

CRANKSHAT

55mm (stock)

---------- Post added at 01:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------



That is what I'm talking about!!!
I guess that is the issue with these Hemi Heads. Needed to be welded up to make good compression.

Bobs 4 Cycle Karting?
Brad Hill???

Yup that's the guy
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  #5  
Old 01-28-2017, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman3850 View Post
Yup that's the guy
I missed my password 5 times on Bob's so I sent a message to a Brad Hill on Facebook. Hope it is the right guy. Wonder how much to Weld up The Chamber. If I could get an 18cc Hemi Head without milling for a reasonable price. I'd be a happy camper.

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

The man's site....
Welding, porting, block reinforcement....
http://www.bradhillperformance.com/

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

Well for $350....
14cc Chamber, 32mm Intake, 28.5mm Exhaust
https://www.howardsoutdoor.com/colle...e-engine-parts
Head comes fully ported, polished and milled .050

** ss valves 32mm intake 28.5 ext

** 60 lb springs

** dual lock retainers

** 4 angle valve job
or
For $325 14cc 28.5mm intake, 25mm exhaust
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:08 AM
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CARB

24mm Carb PWK Flat Slide PWK 24 Carburetor Honda ATV Quad Buggy Kart Dirt Bike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24mm-Carb-PW...25.m3641.l6368


CARB ADAPTER


Manifold, Mikuni 24/28 mm Flat Slide to GX200, 6.5 Chinese OHV, & 212 Predator

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/qmnrr-10.htm

---------- Post added at 02:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 AM ----------

FLYWHEEL

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/6626.htm

Flywheel, Billet Aluminum, 6626,
~3 lbs 7 oz, Non-Adjustable timing, Works with stock recoil, Timing is set at 32 BTDC
Only fits new style Predators, Model 60363 [210FA] that came with Cast Aluminum Valve Cover.
Will not fit old style Predators, Model 69730 [R210] that came with Stamped Aluminum Valve Cover.

---------- Post added at 02:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 AM ----------

HEAD GASKET

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/mls200hg.htm

70mm bore
0.027" MLS

---------- Post added at 02:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 AM ----------

COMPRESSION RATIO CALCULATOR

http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html

70mm bore
55mm stroke
0.027" x 70mm gasket
17.5cc Chamber
0.004" In the Hole (needs to be measured before ordering the rod)
0cc dish/dome (flat top)

11.31 : 1 Static Compression Ratio.

---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 AM ----------

HEAD STUD KIT

http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/hdstudkt.htm

Stud Kit, Includes Head Studs, Washers & Nuts

Fits GX160, GX200, Predators, and most Chinese OHV 6.5 Engines


SIDE COVER STUD KIT
http://www.nrracing.com/product-p/sidestudkt.htm

Side Cover Stud Kit.
Includes 10.9 Grade Side Cover Studs, HD extra Thick Washers, Grade 10.9 Nuts, & Solid case Dowel Pins.
Mandatory for all HP applications. AKRA Legal
(Note. Head studs not included)

---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 AM ----------



CLEARANCES

Should give me around 0.030" Piston to Head Clearance.
Around 0.055" Intake Valve to Piston Clearance.
Around 0.065" Exhaust Valve to Piston Clearance.

Need to look into welding up the chamber or cutting valve reliefs is the piston, then I can look into some ratio Rockers.
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Old 01-28-2017, 12:52 PM
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I mean if you can see at getting a bhill head for around 400$ for the specs you want I would go with that. His heads are a work of art. And people that have his parts love them.

What happened to the power land motor
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:07 PM
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The powerland is on the buggy.

I need to move a car from my buddy's garage so I can get my buggy out.
Then I need to install the hitch on my Fusion and put together my 4x8 utility trailer so I can bring my buggy home to ride it.

It needs a few things. New front bearings. I need to finish the throttle hook up and the brake set up. I thought some hose clamps would be ok to attach the cable housing near the pedal, but it didn't work. ? Round clamp on sq tube, no good? Looking into the "conduit retainers" that people seem to use as the standard.
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:13 PM
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VALVE COVER
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hemi-Billet-...r/322225997147

Must be good for about 2 Pony Powers and 3 Footsie Pounds.
I really like it.
Might need to add a PCV valve thing.
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:28 PM
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SIDE COVER

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clone-Hemi-B...3D322225997147

Billet Side Cover for Modified Engines. Will Fit Hemi Predator, Honda GX200 and Clone 196CC. Double Bearing Crank Supports, Cam Needle Bearing. Comes with all installation hardware and seals.


Would take care of the breathers, but the money could be spent better.
Looking into Catch cans, breathers, pcv valves .... Not sure the best set up. May need to run a fuel pump.
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:35 PM
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It might be a dog, but it will look good.
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File Type: jpg side cover 2.jpg (148.8 KB, 1 views)
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:38 PM
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With a bhill head that cam with 1.2 rockers you can probly turn that motor 8k and make probly around 18hp. I wouldn't really call that a dog.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman3850 View Post
With a bhill head that cam with 1.2 rockers you can probly turn that motor 8k and make probly around 18hp. I wouldn't really call that a dog.
The NR site says easily make 20+HP with the right combo.
I'm assuming this is with 1.2/1.3 Rockers.
Maybe for the 285-0611? With a higher powerband?

The 285-0211 I want...
With 111 LSA
11:1 CR
250 duration
285 lift

Even without the 1.2 rockers, it should make good power.

I think it will have a wide power band.
If it pulls hard from 4000 and pulls to 7000, I'll be happy.

I'm considering doing what everybody says not to and using a 30 series TC (at first). Mine works to 7000, this cam may turn a bit faster. If / When the TC blows up, I'll upgrade to a racing clutch and maybe get the ratio rockers.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

(202931A) These weights
http://www.bmikarts.com/Comet-Die-ca...ly_p_3067.html
(011190 ) These "WHITE" springs
http://www.bmikarts.com/Replacement-...er_p_1015.html

4000 RPM engagement.

I know KF said he didn't have luck with the TC, and Joe blew one up, but for $75, I think I'll give it a try. Kinda of why I picked a torque cam vs a high rpm cam. I want to use a cheap TC and see for myself.
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Old 01-29-2017, 09:31 AM
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New engine.
New girl.
Meet Cheryl fellas.

Hopefully this first date goes better than Missy. Lol

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Old 01-29-2017, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob58o View Post
New engine.
New girl.
Meet Cheryl fellas.

Hopefully this first date goes better than Missy. Lol
You would like for that we should have a rate/hit vote?
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:10 PM
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Not sure I can add a pole without a new thread, but please do. I think she's hot and don't care about anyone else.....

26 years young.

Go ahead judge away. It will be funny.
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Old 06-24-2017, 04:03 AM
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Default Hemi 212 - Mostly Disassembled

So this is what happens when you get off work early, don't go out, and decided that it's 2am and you are bored....

You start breaking perfectly good stuff. Like a Hemi you got off eBay for $85 shipped. It's been in the box collecting dust except for the times I needed to steal carb jets.

The piston is right around 0.025" in da hole.
My last hemi was about the same. I think I called it 0.024" with the last one.

Came apart in less than 2 hrs. Will probably take two years to put it back together the way I want it. Not cause it's difficult, cause my shopping cart at NR is too expensive. Going to have to save a bit before I start to buy. And in no hurry cause there's no home for this engine yet 'cept for my kitchen table.
Attached Images
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:58 PM
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Low oil sensor removed completely.
Hole plugged with M10 Fine Pitch x 1". Original nut was used. Nut on the outside, bolt head inside the crankcase. I used blue (medium) thread locker.

Make your life easier and get 3/4 bolt. 1" fits with out removing the crank, but it was a a tight fit. I struggled for a bit, but just when I thought it was jammed stuck, it popped through.

Enjoy the extra oil capacity. Not sure it matters, but I feel better with it removed.
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File Type: jpg IMG_0740.jpg (246.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0741.jpg (286.7 KB, 5 views)
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Old 06-24-2017, 02:15 PM
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Governor removed completely.
Used a punch to remove the shaft from the flywheel side.
So much easier than fighting the metal ring/groove inside the crankcase.
Most people advance the ignition timing by rotating the flywheel in relation to the crank, so if you have to remove the flywheel anyway, this is the way to do it. Ambush has a cool plate for adjustable timing without removing the flywheel.
http://ambushracingproducts.com/cart...ct_detail&p=26

Had to cut off the top of the governor arm/hockey stick thing that comes from inside the crankcase out the top. Used a cut off wheel and angle grinder. Then pushed it down into the crank case from the top.

Make sure you get all the washers and parts. The back washer likes to hide back there, so don't forget to check. Also check the underside of the top of the block (where the arm came through). One washer was stuck in the goo from the factory.

Both holes will get tapped for 1/4-20 bolts.
3/4" Long on top.
1/2" Long to fill the hole for the gov. shaft.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0742.jpg (198.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0743.jpg (466.2 KB, 1 views)
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File Type: jpg IMG_0748.jpg (334.4 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0747.jpg (388.9 KB, 2 views)
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Old 06-24-2017, 02:57 PM
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Instead of tapping, or trying to find a bolt, I just do what it appears no one else thinks of.
I cut the shaft down, and put it right back where it came from.
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bob58o (06-25-2017)
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