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Old 02-08-2019, 02:26 PM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Default Manco Helix 6150 GY6 Intermittent spark

Hello, all you smart people. I have an issue or two with my buggy and I have seen a few other posts about the Helix and spark issues. I will try and answer most questions before they are asked to minimize time.

The kill switch by the ignition is already bypassed
The CDI(DC) has been replaced, along with the spark plug coil.

When grounding out the plug I get a random spark at when I stop trying to crank it over. The starter motor turns like a champ. I also replaced the magnetic pickup since it doesn't seem to be high enough voltage. If anyone who owns one of these Helix's can use a multimeter and measure the voltage that goes into the CDI from their sensor, that could help me maybe pinpoint the problem there. I have a lot of manuals about the GY6 motor including the one from American Sportworks, which seems to be the retailer of these Kart/Buggies. Attached are pictures of the sides of the Kart when it was in the shop, but I can not keep it there so it's under a tarp out in the snow for now.
Any help in the diagnosis of this issue of intermittent spark or sparking only when I turn off the starter would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!!
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IMG_2159.jpg   IMG_2160.jpg  

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Old 02-08-2019, 08:19 PM
Karttekk Karttekk is offline
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There should be another stop switch near the steering wheel or at least most Manco buggies have one there right where the ignition key cylinder is. Eliminate that one also. What do you mean by replacing the magnetic pickup? Replace the magneto under the flywheel too if you haven't already. The main parts are the magneto, the DC CDI, spark plug and the coil.

Go to section 24/Electrical to see the dash panel that holds the extra stop switch and key cylinder.

https://americanlandmaster.com/pdfs/...t_20071031.pdf

Thanks
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:52 AM
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Kaptain Krunch Kaptain Krunch is offline
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Usually with gy6 style carts/atv i just buy the whole harness/electronics package and replace it all. diagnostic time is far more costly than the $40 box of junk from china.

I did have intermittent spark once that was caused by a faulty voltage regulator. this was a chinese 150 atv. Just something to look into. I would get one or two sparks at the initial crank, then nothing until i let off the starter and hit it again.

It also wouldnt hurt to isolate and disable the kill circuit all together, not just the kill switch but the ignition switch and any safety switches associated.
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:49 PM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Karttekk,
Both the switch by the ignition(by the start switch on the steering wheel) and the switch back on the motor have been bypassed. The magnetic pickup is the same thing as the magnito, just moved to a different location.

The red circle shows where mine is and the highlighted part is what I replaced. If there is another one inside then I did not see it. Just the coil is all I saw.
Thank you guys for both of your help and your time. And to Kaptain Krunch(kick *** name btw) I have not checked the voltage regulator but I could. I just don't know what voltage I should be picking up on the engine position switch(aka the magnito or magnetic pickup). If that is not the right voltage then I need to replace the voltage regulator. Where is a good website to order it from? No place in my STATE works on GY6 motors. Not one place even knew what I was talking about. ND we are a place of cold and snow but not GY6 motors!
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Old 02-09-2019, 06:27 PM
Karttekk Karttekk is offline
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The magneto is behind the flywheel, you'll need a puller to remove the flywheel. That magnetic piece is part of the magneto. It isn't the same thing as the magneto.

Go to Section 4, page 64. It explains the stator or magneto location and disassembly procedure.

https://americanlandmaster.com/pdfs/...al-14589R4.pdf

Let me know if you need anything else.

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

And the pages following page 64.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:00 AM
Awdornowheels Awdornowheels is offline
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Try flipping ur coil wires I had the same issue it spark when u first hit the key and when u let
Off the key. Switched my two coil wires around fixed mine
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theliterit View Post
Thank you guys for both of your help and your time. And to Kaptain Krunch(kick *** name btw) I have not checked the voltage regulator but I could. I just don't know what voltage I should be picking up on the engine position switch(aka the magnito or magnetic pickup). If that is not the right voltage then I need to replace the voltage regulator. Where is a good website to order it from? No place in my STATE works on GY6 motors. Not one place even knew what I was talking about. ND we are a place of cold and snow but not GY6 motors!
Its hard to test a regulator with the engine not running. especially since resistance specs for Chinese electronics can be impossible to find. I usually buy my parts from ebay or amazon. Last time i had an issue i bought a whole harness, with cdi, regulator, stator, coil, kill switch, etc for $35 shipped. Even if you only need one part, for $35 you cant go wrong, because inevitably you will have another failure.

I'm usually against throwing parts at something, but with Chinese stuff its generally what i do. My labor rate is 50/hr so its generally cheaper to start replacing parts.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:32 PM
Karttekk Karttekk is offline
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Here's something to read up on.

Thanks

https://www.instructables.com/id/Bad...for-your-engi/
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Old 02-18-2019, 04:25 PM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Thanks guys, Its still very cold around here, but later this week we should get highs in the double digits so I will try and shovel it out and work on it this Wednesday or Thursday. I am going to start with Awdornowheels's suggestion first and then check out to see if I can pull the flywheel off. I won't let you guys hanging and I will let you know if I can get it to work.
Thanks again for your time guys.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:39 PM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Well, today was very warm out so I made some time to take apart the flywheel. Pictures attached to the bottom.
To KartTekK: There is no magnito underneath the flywheel only the coil wires. The flywheel itself is magnetic and the sensor which shows the CDI the location of where the piston is is the previous highlighted picture that I showed. You can see a second one dangling in my photo.
To Awdornowheels: Did you want me to cut and splice the wires, if so how? I have 4 coming from my coil. Green which goes to ground. Black red which is not used since I am DC not AC orange, which goes to my voltage regulator to charge up my battery and the blue-white wire which comes from the magnetic sensor that tells me where my piston location is.
Finally to Kaptian Krunch: if you can send me a link to your standard ebay "guy" where you can get all of the stuff for $45 shipped I would love that. I have not been lucky enough to find DC parts.
Once again Thanks to all who are helping.

Last edited by theliterit; 03-19-2019 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Adding photos
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:22 AM
Karttekk Karttekk is offline
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You're looking right at the magneto thelierit. The black magnetic pickup is part of the magneto. The coil mounts on the engine with two wires going to it and the spark plug wire coming out of it. Here is the factory parts manual: https://americanlandmaster.com/pdfs/...t_20071031.pdf Scroll to Section 11, Engine Electrical. Refer part#1. Next scroll to Section 24, Electrical. You'll see the coil illustrated. Part #1.

Not exactly sure what this means: "The flywheel itself is magnetic and the sensor which shows the CDI the location of where the piston is is the previous highlighted picture that I showed." Please elaborate.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Thanks
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:21 AM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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KartTekK: That manual is not for my kart.
https://americanlandmaster.com/pdfs/...al-14589R4.pdf is a closer version. In this image, you will see that the highlighted area is the black sensor which is outside of the flywheel. That part has already been replaced. The wires from that are a blue-white.

I got that image from the manual that is for my machine. You will find that at section 4-4 on page 68 if you print it or page 70 on the pdf. If you continue on to the electrical diagram on page 77 on the pdf you will see how my electrical system is laid out.
4 wires coming from the "generator" section, not 2.
The "L/W" stands for blue-white which comes from the magneto(the black box that indicates the location of the piston).
The R/B , which is not on there but is on the page before, is used for an AC CDI, not a DC.
The G which is ground.
And the Y which goes to the voltage regulator. And from the voltage regulator to the battery.
The spark is generated in the CDI(Capacitor discharge ignition), the battery charges up the capacitor and then discharges when it receives a signal from the blue-white wire. The setup you are referencing is the AC system, not the DC system. I have a DC model. This is why I have been looking for the voltage output from the magneto to see what voltage I should get to trigger the release of the capacitor.
I hope this can clarify the confusion that you might be having.
Also side note, in the lower lefthand corner you can see the other magneto sensor hanging with a blue and yellow wire coming from it.

Last edited by theliterit; 03-20-2019 at 10:22 AM. Reason: side note added
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:11 PM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:05 PM
Karttekk Karttekk is offline
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I can't help you anymore. The Manco GY6 engine is the same in the 6150 kart and the 7150 Carbide. Both DC CDI equipped. Both have the same magneto. Manco doesn't use an AC CDI. Scroll to Section 11 Engine Electrical. Magneto part #14365.
Look at the part from American Landmaster's site. Part #14365. https://americanlandmaster.com/WebSt...9n8n8u57glk910 Look & see what it fits.

You need to go back and learn a bit more about what you're talking about. The Manco 6150 Helix was superseded by the Carbide 7150. Same engine, same parts. Compare the engine specs in both the 7150 and the 6150.

Where did this come from? "The setup you are referencing is the AC system, not the DC system." I sent you an American Sportworks/American Landmaster factory manual.

Here's another view. https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Pole-Stat...21612159588The trigger is part of the magneto. No confusion here. Good luck.

---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

Try this link. https://www.bmikarts.com/8-Pole-Stat...00_p_3210.html

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

I can almost guarantee you if you replace each of these parts and the rest of the kart wiring and switches are original, your kart will start and run fine. I think you cut the trigger off your magneto. It had to have been part of the magneto, that's how they're made. I have the exact kart and replaced the same parts. The previous owner ran screws through the cooling fan right into the magneto and ruined it. If you need pictures of how everything is supposed to be I can send you some.

https://americanlandmaster.com/WebSt...95qa65drmue4p0

https://americanlandmaster.com/WebSt...roducts_id=677

https://americanlandmaster.com/WebSt...roducts_id=708
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:46 PM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karttekk View Post
You're looking right at the magneto thelierit. The black magnetic pickup is part of the magneto.
It is not as you can see by this ebay listing
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignition-Pu...72.m2749.l2649

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karttekk View Post
The coil mounts on the engine with two wires going to it and the spark plug wire coming out of it. Here is the factory parts manual: https://americanlandmaster.com/pdfs/...t_20071031.pdf
This is also not true as I have stated I have 3 wires not two comming off of the coil. You can see so in the pictures that I have shown.

I do not know much about the differences in manco Helix's or other models, however I have a lot of experience dealing with electronics. So I decieded to make a pulse generator to recreate the pulse that the CDI should produce and found that the CDI was not producing any signal at all. I just ordered another new CDI to fix the one I already purchased from BuggyDepot.

Even with photos of my cart and videos of the CDI difference and the wires needed to run it, I have found that this format is not condusive to good conversation.
I appologize to you KartTekk for any hurt feelings I might have inflicted. After the CDI shows up I will try that and if that does not work I will replace the whole coil setup as you suggest.
Since you say you have the same model, can you tell me how far apart your sensor is from your flywheel. I feel that mine is too far apart.
Thank you for your time.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:41 AM
Karttekk Karttekk is offline
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No sense going back and forth.

If in doubt, call American Landmaster or email them. No hard feelings. I just find it odd when people ask for help here then dispute the replies.


Thanks
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:26 AM
theliterit theliterit is offline
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Ok for anyone else out there my original question still remains. Can anyone who has one of these please measure the voltage that comes off of the sensor(blue/white wire) and tell me what the functional voltage should be. And now I am curious as to what the gap between the flywheel and that sensor is supposed to be.
Thanks in advance!
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:33 PM
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leesiel leesiel is offline
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I
Quote:
Originally Posted by theliterit View Post
Ok for anyone else out there my original question still remains. Can anyone who has one of these please measure the voltage that comes off of the sensor(blue/white wire) and tell me what the functional voltage should be. And now I am curious as to what the gap between the flywheel and that sensor is supposed to be.
Thanks in advance!
You can find the voltage values on the interwebs.... almost all gy6s run within the same parameters. I had little to no trouble finding them for my crossfire 150 and 150 r.
Buggy masters. com was also a lot of help when I was learning about the gy6.
https://www.buggydepot.com/tech-cent...uide-no-spark/
See if that helps. I'll try and find the other page.
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