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Old 10-23-2017, 10:50 PM
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Default 2017 - Bucket Rod Build - DNF

Building a wheelbarrow based kart, but building it kinda like something from the 50's. Not everything will be period correct, but hopefully it will have the right vibe.

Disclaimer: I dont have internet at home so Im updating this from my phone.

Step 1. Get permission from the wife!

Step 2 - purchase perfectly good parts to cut up.
I just picked up the frame on craigslist for $30. Time to remove pieces that arent going to work. Break out the plasma cutter and grinder.



Step 3. Take a picture of random stuff in the shop.



---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

The wheelbarrow was given me by another guy at work. It had too big of rust holes in the bottom to haul sand or mix concrete.

The engine is a 50's vintage REO off of a reel mower that was given me when I was in elementry school and building karts. Im 39 now At about 2hp and running in reverse rotation it should be interesting at least. The output shaft comes off the cam in correct rotation but 1/2 speed.

The truck wheel is just a size reference.

The front tires are old ones I replaced from our little snapper riding mower. They are shot and a tad small but good for the pic.

My wife didn't want her mug on the site ��

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

I hauled the project over to my dads place and we had a great day hanging out and mocking up pieces for the bucket.

The rear tires need to be a bit bigger and the engine higher.


Hey Dad fits, its even comfy!


Figure out a dash that clears the torque converter and grill placement.


Not bad for a days playing in the shop. I had the ribbed scoop laying around my shop so we plopped it on top.


---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

I trucked the bucket back home and started making pieces based on the mockup. Before proceeding I needed my boys approval!


Then I chopped the extra frame off the back


Using some 3/4 aluminized EMT I cut and bent some engine supports.


---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 PM ----------

Roughly estimate drive gear ratios:
Engine RPM – 4000 RPM (http://www.reolawnmower.com/data.html)
Output shaft RPM (4000/2) = 2000
Typical 6.5hp cart numbers with torque converter 40mph absolute top speed.
Tire diameter – 20 inches
Tire circumference (pi*diameter) = 3.14*20 = 62.8 inches circumference
Tire circumference in feet (inches / 12) = 5.23 feet
Tire rotations per mile (5280 feet in a mile), (5280/5.23) = 1009
Target top speed. Here I figure I’ve got less than the HP of the 6.5HP carts, I should target something less than the top speed, say 15mph
Tire rotations for 15 miles (1009 * 15) = 15135
If the tire needs to turn 15135 times in an hour at top speed, lets find out how many times it needs to rotate in a minute (60 minutes in an hour) (15135/60) = 252 tire rpm

Now a torque converter says its final drive after it is “fully shifted” is 1:1, so we can directly compare max output rpm to max tire rpm and estimate a drive ratio needed. (2000 output rpm/252 tire rpm) = 7.9:1

After looking around at available parts 7:1 seems doable and I’ll use a larger 7” driven pulley on the torque converter to help the bottom end a bit.

Last edited by speedbug78; 10-25-2017 at 01:24 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:14 PM
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Here is a list of stuff I bought on e-bay:

10mm Banjo Bolts - $5.95


61" Brake Hose - $9.95


BRAKE CALIPER - $12.34


8" Brake Rotor - $15.95


Brake Master Cylinder – $8.99


(2) RH 5/16"- 24 with 5/16" Bore, Heim Joints - $6.84


(Qty 2) 1" ID Pillow Block - $13.75


(2) 13x5.00-6 MTD Wheels & Tires – $38.21


Mtd rear wheels / tires - $54.00


30 SERIES 3/4" CLUTCH DRIVEN ASYMMETRIC 7" - $29.95


30 Series Driver 1" Bore - 39.95


10T #35 Sprocket - $15.95


30 Series Comet 203591 replacement belt – $9.68


#35 Chain Sprocket 70T - $16.95

Last edited by speedbug78; 10-25-2017 at 02:28 PM. Reason: removed duplicate info, added relevant
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  #3  
Old 10-25-2017, 06:13 AM
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Moderator intervention has this looking a mess this morning? Nice project though!
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:55 AM
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Moderator intervention has this looking a mess this morning? Nice project though!
Moderators just approved some posts...that all
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:06 AM
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Well, it's a jumble.
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbug78 View Post
Roughly estimate drive gear ratios:
Engine RPM – 4000 RPM (http://www.reolawnmower.com/data.html)
Output shaft RPM (4000/2) = 2000
Typical 6.5hp cart numbers with torque converter 40mhp absolute top speed.
Tire diameter – 20 inches
Tire circumference (pi*diameter) = 3.14*20 = 62.8 inches circumference
Tire circumference in feet (inches / 12) = 5.23 feet
Tire rotations per mile (5280 feet in a mile), (5280/5.23) = 1009
Target top speed. Here I figure I’ve got less than the HP of the 6.5HP carts, I should target something less than the top speed, say 15mph
Tire rotations for 15 miles (1009 * 15) = 15135
If the tire needs to turn 15135 times in an hour at top speed, lets find out how many times it needs to rotate in a minute (60 minutes in an hour) (15135/60) = 252 tire rpm

Now a torque converter says its final drive after it is “fully shifted” is 1:1, so we can directly compare max output rpm to max tire rpm and estimate a drive ratio needed. (2000 output rpm/252 tire rpm) = 7.9:1

After looking around at available parts 7:1 seems doable and I’ll use a larger 7” driven pulley on the torque converter to help the bottom end a bit.

I think the smaller 40 series driven pulley is 40D 7.5" and the bigger (more bottom end) 44D pulley is 8.5"
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:28 PM
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Thank you mods for approving my posts! I'll try to use edit to clean things up. If anyone could let me know what I'm doing wrong that would help. It seems like every time I try to write something detailed it ends up going to the moderators.

---------- Post added at 12:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob58o View Post

I think the smaller 40 series driven pulley is 40D 7.5" and the bigger (more bottom end) 44D pulley is 8.5"
Good to know. I was planning to use the 30 series size and the ones I'm seeing for sale are 6" or 7"? For what it matters I purchased a 7".
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Old 10-26-2017, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbug78 View Post
Thank you mods for approving my posts! I'll try to use edit to clean things up. If anyone could let me know what I'm doing wrong that would help. It seems like every time I try to write something detailed it ends up going to the moderators.

---------- Post added at 12:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------



Good to know. I was planning to use the 30 series size and the ones I'm seeing for sale are 6" or 7"? For what it matters I purchased a 7".
The reason it goes to the moderators at the moment is because you are still new to the forum and have a low post count. We have a spam catcher that catches all posts from users that have a lot of external links in them, and if they have a low post count (I think it is like 20 posts or something like that). So in your first post when you linked all those external URL's for your pics and all those websites, it thought you were a spammer and flagged the post for moderation. We then have to OK it. It works well 90% of the time, and the other 10%, which are genuine forum members, we just have to manage properly. You shouldn't have a problem again after a couple more posts
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Old 10-26-2017, 04:39 AM
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The reason it goes to the moderators at the moment is because you are still new to the forum and have a low post count. We have a spam catcher that catches all posts from users that have a lot of external links in them, and if they have a low post count (I think it is like 20 posts or something like that). So in your first post when you linked all those external URL's for your pics and all those websites, it thought you were a spammer and flagged the post for moderation. We then have to OK it. It works well 90% of the time, and the other 10%, which are genuine forum members, we just have to manage properly. You shouldn't have a problem again after a couple more posts
Ahhhhh....he just doesn't like Spam...(weirdo)...

That's a cool little project you got going there!
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:11 AM
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Ahhhhh....he just doesn't like Spam...(weirdo)...

That's a cool little project you got going there!
I can't imagine why he wouldn't just love spam



Thank you! I've been busy with family birthdays and church stuff lately, so hopefully I'll get back to it this weekend.

I did get the torque converter and large sprocket in the mail yesterday so that was fun.

I think I'm going to need to change the springs in the driver to reduce the engagement RPMs, and maybe change holes in the driven. My engine has a 2:1 reduction on the output.

This is my first kart with a torque converter so I'm studying and taking everything apart to see how it works

Anyone have experience running a series 30 converter with the "black" spring and low rpm hole on the driven (not sure if it is hole #1 or #3)

For the driver pulley
According to BMI Karts on e-bay, engagement RPM:
I won't post a link
Zinc Weights Aluminum Mod Aluminum
(202933A) (202931A) (216117)
Black (011189) 1400 2100 2300
Orange (011184) 1500 2300 2500
Pink (011186) 1800 2800 3100
Blue (011188) 2200 3300 3700
White (011190) 3100 4000 4500
Yellow (216111) 3300 4200 4700

Changing the "hole" setting on the driven seems to change the "fully shifted" rpm, but there are also various colors of springs that can be bought for the driven too. I currently have the red one and its in hole #2. Anyone played with changing the driven spring for a different color?
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:37 PM
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I got a bunch more parts in the mail today. I thought I would take another parts pic.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:23 AM
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Ooooh!! Shiny!
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:31 PM
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Today I started with mounting the front axle. I notched a couple of small tubes with my grinder.


Tuen tacked them and the axle on the frame. I measured side to side and height to make sure the axle was square to the frame. Before tacking the axle I set the caster to 15 degrees.


After everything was tacked a couple of times I set the wheels on to make sure everything looked right.


Finally I took everything back off and finish welded the front axle on. I still need to cross brace it.


After welding the axle on I measured and trimmed the floor pan back to where the first engine upright will go.


I also spent some time grinding all the weld places where I've cut things off. Next I need to get out the flap disk and sand them flush.

In the back of the frame you can also see a couple of tabs I added to bolt the pillow blocks to. My origional mounting spot wasn't close enough to the outside of the frame so I had to re-drill those holes. Here is a pic before the tabs were welded on and with the blocks in the first spot.


---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

Another question for the experienced. You can see the spring in my left spindle mount. Does that setup really help much? My spindle on that side is worn and gives that wheel some extra camber so I was thinking of taking the spring out and welding up a full length tube for that side.

Last edited by speedbug78; 10-28-2017 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Corrected terminology, changed castor to camber
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:11 AM
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T-Bucket type kart

Very kool

springs-it gives a bit goin' over bumps

not really suspension

just helps to keep from breakin' stuff
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:53 AM
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STOP IT! Stop it right now I tell ya........ Looking great!!! Digital castor gauge?? Cool stuff!!! I must go out and buy me a new mig welder now!!!
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:00 PM
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T-Bucket type kart

Very kool

springs-it gives a bit goin' over bumps

not really suspension

just helps to keep from breakin' stuff
Yeah, true "suspension" should maintain the neutral point somewhere in the middle of the spring travel, whereas the springs around the kingpin above the spindle are more just a bit of cushion. Ideally, Your springs should be stiff enough that they are juuuust starting to compress with the kart sitting still with a rider on it.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
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Another question for the experienced. You can see the spring in my left spindle mount. Does that setup really help much? My spindle on that side is worn and gives that wheel some extra caster so I was thinking of taking the spring out and welding up a full length tube for that side.
IMHO> Remove them and do what you need to to get the castor where you need it. I have them in my front spindle set-up and I do not see that they actually do anything better than the tires would. What are yours 2 1/2"??? mine are like 5"!!

I cannot see your springs doing a bit of good!! You need longer springs than that to notice anything. IF you use balloon tires, they act as a sort of shock because they 'give' to a certain extent when you hit a bump. Unless they are factory, I would not use the springs and if I had a good replacement for mine, I would remove them. That is the only reason they are still in place......to lift my kart that extra 5 inches for ground clearance. I have seen YouTube vids where they are replaced with carefully cut and prepared pipe to take up the space left after removing them.

I think the springs look kinda cool though even though I find them very un-useful. Do what you think is best and remember tires do take some shock out of the rough rides. And how often do you think you are going to take rocky trails or jump that bad boy?? I just want to play in the dry dirt or sand and raise dust!!! That's the fun of it. Looking great though and>>>
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Old 10-28-2017, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by speedbug78 View Post
I think I'm going to need to change the springs in the driver to reduce the engagement RPMs, and maybe change holes in the driven. My engine has a 2:1 reduction on the output.

This is my first kart with a torque converter so I'm studying and taking everything apart to see how it works
Never used the black garter springs. Not sure how well one of these TC's will work with the 2:1 reduction???? Peak torque will be at 1000 RPM out put shaft speed and peak HP at 1800 RPM. Not used to People trying little engines, with reduction plates, TC's, and 20" tires.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:37 PM
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Thanks for the kind words and useful input guys! I think I'm going to remove the spring and rebuild that spindle. The spring is really short and coil binds with me on the kart, plus there is a spring only on the one side.

I made some more progress today, but its not going to be done by Halloween. Guess I can't dress up like Tom Slick.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

Started by working on the rear axle. I turned a few adapters to fit the bearings. I bought 1" bearings thinking I may go that way some time, but am using 3/4" for now.


I needed some bolts and nuts so I ran to the hardware store.

$54 later the carriage bolts didn't sit flush.


I widened the bolt holes a bit and that fixed it.


---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

Milling the axle ends and keyways. I had some trouble with the mill today, but managed to get it done.




The axle ends came out just right flush with the wheel.



Then I drilled and tapped the ends for the wheel retaining bolts.



Rear axle installed


After the frame was sitting on its wheels I trimmed and welded the engine mount tubes and a pan under the seat.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:39 PM
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Here is another bit I started working on tonight. Im hoping to create a digital gauge or two for the kart. I'd like to power it with a couple of AAs since my engine doesn't have a generator *yet*.



---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

I am using 1.44" tft lcd displays from aliexpress. They look pretty good really although a bit small. A tach and speedo might be useful. My engine doesn't have oil pressure, but temperature might be good to see.

The instructions I used for wiring and test code is here:
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-...icro-sd-socket

---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------

My next challenge is to write the code and include a gauge design that looks cool and period but works well with fairly low resolution. I'm open to ideas here.
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