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Old 10-19-2018, 01:12 PM
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Default Building a go kart size Aerial Atom

I am working on/planning to build a "mini" Aerial Atom & while doing research I came across this:

(I know how much Sid loves them "Hypercars")

"Ariel Motor Company releases details on their all new, ultra-high performance, range extended, electric sports car project - HIPERCAR.

Standing for HIgh PERformance - CArbon Reduction, the project is destined for full release in 2019 and Ariel production in 2020 alongside the Atom and Nomad. As with other Ariel vehicles, the focus of HIPERCAR is on extreme performance, agility and usability, now coupled with zero and ultra-low emissions. To be available in four wheel drive and two wheel drive variants, HIPERCAR will offer staggering performance utilizing cutting edge technology.

Phase 1 of the project, undertaken by Ariel with partners Equipmake and Delta Motorsport, will demonstrate both 2 wheel drive and 4 wheel drive prototypes and will be shown at the Low Carbon Vehicle (LCV) Show at Millbrook on 6 and 7 September 2017.

HIPERCAR, with a model name yet to be decided, is not just an Ariel production car, destined to be one of the highest performance and sought after vehicles in the world, but also a launchpad of UK developed technology into other niche, medium volume and ultimately high volume production.

The car is a Series Hybrid EV (Electric Vehicle) featuring a 750 Volt, 42 kWh or 56kWh, lithium-ion, cooled and heated battery pack which is charged, when required, by a 35kW micro-turbine range extender, negating any range anxiety issues and making the vehicle independent of any charging infrastructure.

HIPERCAR will be available as a 4 wheel drive or 2 wheel rear drive, full bodied car, the final exterior design of which is to be released at a later date. Based around an aluminium folded and bonded lightweight chassis with full rollover protection, the structure features aluminium front and rear subframes carrying aluminium wishbones and outboard adjustable suspension. Forged or carbon composite wheels carry 265/35/20 front and 325/30/21 rear tyres.

Powered wheels are driven by inboard motors via integral, single speed step-down gearboxes direct to driven wheels, with each individual motor developing 220kW (295bhp) and 450Nm (332 ft lb) of torque.

In 4 wheel drive total power is therefore 880 kW (1,180bhp) and in 2 wheel drive form 440kW (590bhp).

Total torque is 1,800 Nm (1327 ft lb) at motor and 9,900 Nm (7301 ft lb) at the wheels in the 4 wheel drive HIPERCAR and 900Nm (664 ft lb) at motor and 4,950 Nm (3651 ft lb) at the wheels in the 2 wheel drive car.

The vehicle’s electrical architecture consists of high and low voltage systems linked by multiple CAN networks enabling the Powertrain Controller, Vehicle Dynamic Control Interface and Battery Controller to communicate and interact with 12V and safety systems.

Pricing will not be finalised until later in the project. Simon Saunders said, “Like other Ariels we want HIPERCAR to represent excellent value for money for the remarkable performance on offer. It will be an expensive car because of the technology involved but when compared to £1m+ supercars, which it will outperform, it’s going to represent excellent value for money. This is the first true electric supercar that will cross continents, drive to town and lap a race track”.

Preliminary Specifications:

Performance:
•0 – 60 mph: 2.4 secs
•0 – 100 mph: 3.8 secs
•0 – 150 mph: 7.8 secs
•Top speed: 160 mph

Motor:
•Inboard motor per wheel with integrated gearbox and inverter
•220kW / 295bhp per motor
•450Nm / 332Ft-lb per motor
•10,000 RPM

Gearbox:
•Epicyclic Gearbox with driveshaft
•5.5:1 gearbox

Total vehicle power:

4 Wheel drive:
•880kW / 1180bhp
•1,800-9,900Nm / 1,327-7,301Ft-Lbat the wheels

2 Wheel drive:
•440kW / 590bhp
•900-4,950Nm / 664-3,651Ft-Lb at the wheels

Range extender:
•Unleaded gasoline fueled turbine with generator.
•Start up speed 30,000rpm
•120,000rpm running speed
•35kW power generated

Battery:
HIPERCAR/4WD Pack:
•Cell Chemistry : Lithium Ion
•Capacity = 42 kWh
•Nominal Voltage = 680 V
•Peak Current = 1200 Amps
•Liquid cooled.

AMPLiFII/2WD Pack:
•Cell Chemistry : Lithium Ion
•Capacity = 56 kWh
•Nominal Voltage = 648 V
•Peak Current = 1050 Amps
•Liquid cooled.

Instrumentation:
•2 x TFT digital display with multi selectable touch screens

Cooling & HVAC:
•Multi-circuit heated & cooled glycol system for cabin, battery & driveline, incorporating high performance electric coolant pumps & aluminum radiators.
•Front - System 1 – Battery, System 2 – Front inverters, System 3 – Front rotors, System 4 – Front stators, System 6 – Cabin heating, System 7 – Air conditioning
•Rear - System 8 – Rear inverters, System 9 – Rear rotors, System 10 – Rear stators, System 11 – Range extender, charging inverter, DC/DC converter

Chassis:
•Bonded aluminum tub with high strength safety rollover cage. Removable front and rear subframes, incorporating billet machined & anodized aluminum interfaces.

Suspension:
•Billet machined aluminum unequal length double wishbones with Bilstein MDS adjustable motorsport coil over dampers & anti-roll bars front & rear.

Steering:
•Power assisted rack & pinion, 2.25 turns lock to lock
•Reach & rake adjustable steering column
•330mm suede cover sports steering wheel

Braking:
•Front: 370x32mm ventilated grooved discs with 6 piston AP Racing calipers
•Rear: 328x30mm ventilated grooved discs with 4 piston AP Racing calipers.
•Brembo Park Brake calipers.

Wheels:
•Front - 9.5” x 20” Forged alloy or Dymag Boxstrom 7Y carbon hybrid
•Rear - 12.5” x 21” Forged alloy or Dymag Boxstrom 7Y carbon hybrid

Tires:
•Front - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 -265/35/ZR21.
•Rear - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 -325/30/ZR21

Seating:
•Lightweight carbon fiber hybrid adjustable sports seats with alcantara trim.
•Inertia reel seat belts"

https://www.arielna.com/news

The first pic is an Aerial Atom 4 (4th generation)

The others are supposed to be this "Hypercar"
Attached Thumbnails
untitled.jpg   Aerial Hypercar.jpg  

Aerial Hypercar rear view.jpg   Aerial Hypercar no body.jpg  

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Old 10-19-2018, 06:32 PM
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since when do I love Hypercars?
Most are just stupid toys for small testiculated rich folk...
a hand full are indeed worth looking at twice..

But let's see what Ariel can do for us ..
may I say that the designer of that Hipercar must have been lstaring at the autobot logo for too long..
jeez that thing looks like it fell right off a transformers movie.

Anywhoo..
I like the 'specs'
*cough*

4 Wheel drive:
•880kW / 1180bhp
•1,800-9,900Nm / 1,327-7,301Ft-Lbat the wheels

HIPERCAR/4WD Pack:
•Cell Chemistry : Lithium Ion
•Capacity = 42 kWh

WOW 2.8 minutes to fully drain your battery if you floor that pedal...
really, what's the point?


2 Wheel drive:
•440kW / 590bhp
•900-4,950Nm / 664-3,651Ft-Lb at the wheel

Battery:
AMPLiFII/2WD Pack:
•Cell Chemistry : Lithium Ion
•Capacity = 56 kWh
Almost 8 minutes until the battery is completely dead after flooring the pedal..
that's still less than I need to even GET TO the autobahn


Range extender:
•Unleaded gasoline fueled turbine with generator.
•Start up speed 30,000rpm
•120,000rpm running speed
•35kW power generated

Right... the least efficient power generator on planet earth..
an insanely stupid fast turbine the cooling to not melt that turbine would likely suck 20kW alone...
But okay okay.. 35kW *cough*
(for every hour running the turbine you get 4.7 minutes of full throttle drive time at best [only 2.4 mins with the 4wd])

So what do we have essentially..
A car with the power to brag (but not enough 'fuel' to make serious use of it!)
And a range extender that's insanely inefficient only for the "turbine hum" really...
that's not even worth firing up,
since it cannot refill the batteries fast enough for you to even care
you won't sit in your car for several hours with a running 120000 rpm turbine
(and a massive headache afterwards) just to drive the next 40 miles to again wait for a few hours (and more headache)
You find a charging station and a hotel room!

Sure..
I'm fairly certain you can cruise along with less than 30kW at a nice slow pace and everything is milk honey and violets in bloom..
BUT you have a 120000 rpm turbine in your neck suggesting you are essentially in a jet fighter plane (without it's ear protection though)
And yet you grandma speed on the bus lane...
in a car that exactly looks like a Marvel toy from the eighties.

So yeah..
if drag racing is what one's after.. sure thing.. it's not ugly it's likely going to be quick as driven by rubber bands..
no matter what headstart you generate, a simple 911 will take you over in a few minutes on the Autobahn.
(as soon as your batteries are dead )


Sooo.. nah, thank you.. I don't give much of a flying shirt for that car either.

918 RSR however... that's a car giving me sweaty palms...

'sid
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:31 PM
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I'm more of a fan of the Nomad. Now a KTM X-Bow *drool*

More serious note very this is your most adventurous idea. Hope it comes to fruition.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
since when do I love Hypercars?

Most are just stupid toys for small testiculated rich folk...

jeez that thing looks like it fell right off a transformers movie.

Anywhoo..
Battery:
Almost 8 minutes until the battery is completely dead after flooring the pedal..
'sid
Just a little sarcasm pal
...remember the Alieno?
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39597

I guess I got stuck @:
Performance:
•0 – 60 mph: 2.4 secs
•0 – 100 mph: 3.8 secs
•0 – 150 mph: 7.8 secs
•Top speed: 160 mph

But, ya less than 10 min run time @ full throttle, your right "what's the point?"
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kartorbust View Post
I'm more of a fan of the Nomad. Now a KTM X-Bow *drool*

More serious note very this is your most adventurous idea. Hope it comes to fruition.
IDK there's something about them X-Bow's
...flying carpet?
...Batmobile?

Yup, I can see a few variations of the Aerial Atom concept in my/our future.

I have some ideas, just gotta work out the dimensions & some details.

Sid reminded me of this Ariel Atom build, here on DIYGK:
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22479

They did a really good job, but it looks kinda big, more like a sand rail than a go kart. (like maybe ~8' long)

I am trying to design one to be closer to 4' long. (go kart size)
Attached Thumbnails
Xbow.jpg   SAM_2577.jpg  

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Old 10-19-2018, 10:32 PM
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You should google tao tao arrow 150cc. It might help on this one !
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Old 10-20-2018, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post
.....

I have some ideas, just gotta work out the dimensions & some details.

Sid reminded me of this Ariel Atom build, here on DIYGK:
http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22479

They did a really good job, but it looks kinda big, more like a sand rail than a go kart. (like maybe ~8' long)

I am trying to design one to be closer to 4' long. (go kart size)
but you are aware of the leg-cage, right?

Take a look at that build log again..
watch jr. in the kart...

You think you can fit your legs in a cage half the width and half the height without some contortionist training at a chinese circus?

the Appeal of the Atom comes from it's airy appeal and it's nice proportions.
(I still don't like it too much, but it's a well made design I must admit)

so you shouldn't make it too small
IDK how much margin there is to use even smaller tubing,
and you cannot not scale the tubes or you are about to lose that airy birdcage (TM Maserati ) flair
and messing up the proportions (to allow for more leg room) is also a nono IMHO.

So yeah.. be very aware or you end up with a huge RC car instead

'sid
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
but you are aware of the leg-cage, right?

Take a look at that build log again..
watch jr. in the kart...

You think you can fit your legs in a cage half the width and half the height without some contortionist training at a chinese circus?

the Appeal of the Atom comes from it's airy appeal and it's nice proportions.
(I still don't like it too much, but it's a well made design I must admit)

so you shouldn't make it too small
IDK how much margin there is to use even smaller tubing,
and you cannot not scale the tubes or you are about to lose that airy birdcage (TM Maserati ) flair
and messing up the proportions (to allow for more leg room) is also a nono IMHO.

So yeah.. be very aware or you end up with a huge RC car instead

'sid
I have a 4ft long kart with 3ft for your legs and I haven't to do some crazy contortionist stuff to get into it.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-405 View Post
You should google tao tao arrow 150cc. It might help on this one !
Thanks, but that's cheating

I'll try to be a bit more creative & lighter
...but, probably end up having like characteristics

---------- Post added at 07:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
but you are aware of the leg-cage, right?

Take a look at that build log again..
watch jr. in the kart...

You think you can fit your legs in a cage half the width and half the height without some contortionist training at a chinese circus?

the Appeal of the Atom comes from it's airy appeal and it's nice proportions.
(I still don't like it too much, but it's a well made design I must admit)

so you shouldn't make it too small
IDK how much margin there is to use even smaller tubing,
and you cannot not scale the tubes or you are about to lose that airy birdcage (TM Maserati ) flair
and messing up the proportions (to allow for more leg room) is also a nono IMHO.

So yeah.. be very aware or you end up with a huge RC car instead

'sid
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Well stand back (I might do something awesome) & let me see what I can conjure up.

Wow, I just had a vision of a sorcerer guy thinking about something, then working his hands around a bit, you see a cloud of smoke & poof there is...something that never was before.



Seriously though, for a go kart I think we can reduce the front & rear quite a bit.

The proportions may end up being "off" (a technical term) a bit, but what I (kinda) have in mind is a floor pan of ~12" wide x ~36" - 40".

Ima gonna use my standard water pipe & it should (I hope) still be quite airy
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:14 PM
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I have a 4ft long kart with 3ft for your legs and I haven't to do some crazy contortionist stuff to get into it.
Sure but is it 20" wide and are the legs in a 12" height restricted cage?

All I'm saying, it'll be a tight fit Kevin

'sid
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:58 AM
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I am gonna start off with IMO the Aerial Atom is a big, well engineered, high performance "street legal" go kart.

So, an electric go kart size one..."Bad Azz"

As Sid said, sizing it down isn't gonna be easy, but with some creative embellishments...who knows

We'll figure it out, it's just a big go kart...right.

There is lots of info & pics "on Google", but I didn't come across any actual blueprint type plans. (with measurements)

I also noticed "you gotta watch", because there seem to be (4) "official" versions of the Aerial Atom & then it looks like there are several DIY variations "out there" & with all of them bars (optical illusions) it's kinda confusing...so, make sure you watch which one your lookin' at.

To make things more confusing (& stronger) is the fact that there are several levels to a frame like this, on several different angles & then there are bows that are on their own angles too.

So, to help simplify things lets try to break it down into some basic components.

The first, main things to look at are the rib cage looking, side bars.
(basically, application specific, custom formed, engineered trusses)

These "ribbon rails" (seem to flow like a ribbon) have a full length bottom rail with a big gradual bow with a little "kick in" toward the rear. A nearly full length upper side rail with just a big gradual bow & then, there are the rib bars "ribs" that separate, strengthen & support them.

Then, to form the structure there is a "nose/suspension box" connecting the "ribbon rails" in the front,a dash/upper steering support connecting in the "front" center, a seat back/hoop connecting the "rear" center, the engine/motor cage in the rear & then a bunch of support bars.

Here is a "main component" top 10 list, to help get us started.

1. Left bottom Ribbon Rail
2. Right bottom Ribbon Rail
3. Left upper Ribbon Rail
4. Right upper Ribbon Rail
5. Left Nose box bar
6. Right Nose box bar
7. Lower Nose box bar
8. Upper nose box bar
9. Dash/steering support bar
10. Seatback/rollbar/lower motor cage bar
Attached Thumbnails
ariel atom frame.jpg   arielatombuilddescription-l-9b915de7814ffe05.jpg  

arielatomframe-l-17a4cc8866c5056d.jpg   atom-frame-assembly.jpg  

69405.jpg  
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:15 AM
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Ariel.. ariel, ariel.. repaet after me.. A.. R.. I.. E.. L

Not aerial

You can find very very accurate 3D files of it online.. (on grabcad for example half your images are from grabcad anyways )
get one, load it up and measure it there.
in case you don't have Solidworks,
get the stl from here:https://grabcad.com/library/ariel-atom-1
load it into meshalb (it's free) to take measurements

You could also load it, scale it down to your desired size and then take measurements,
that way you the computer does all the math and you don't accidentally run into troubles.

'sid
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsid View Post
Ariel.. ariel, ariel.. repaet after me.. A.. R.. I.. E.. L

Not aerial

You can find very very accurate 3D files of it online.. (on grabcad for example half your images are from grabcad anyways )
get one, load it up and measure it there.

You could also load it, scale it down to your desired size and then take measurements,
that way you the computer does all the math and you don't accidentally run into troubles.

'sid
Ariel, Ariel, A..R..I..E..L OK, I think I got it

Sorry, I don't know about CAD (computer aided design) except for the term.
(remember I'm just a tow truck driver)
I do most of my stuff "old school" in my head & then with pen, paper & a ruler.

As you said, it may not scale down well, so I am/will probably not going to actually go "by the book" or "build to scale", but if you (or anyone) wants to "drop some info on me", it would be most appreciated.

By biggest question right now is how to scale down & figure those "big gradual bow/bends" in the Ribbon Rails & they seem to have a little bit different bows to them.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:50 AM
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Just remember, up until CAD was put out there, everything was done with a slide rule and pencil. CAD then made it even more difficult, but easier at the same time. I'm still trying to learn how to use Free CAD or even sketch-up....however most videos are not in English, which sucks.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:06 AM
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I always found it easier to 'sketch' stuff in 3D (big fan of 3DSmax but when I couldn't get a student license any longer I switched to free blender instead)
that's not 'true*' CAD by no means.. but once you have the general shape to your likings, you can easily manipulate it to match your critical dimensions afterwards.

Tinkercad used to be good until Autodesk got their hands on it... now it's a dumbed down version of their crappy 123D interface (I hate it!)

But in the end you need to find the software that suits you best (and the task at hand)

'sid

*by that I mean it's not really parametic modelling, you basically freehand your way through the design phase as much as you want and only set the parameters as you need them.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:30 AM
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Maybe, I'll do some CAD research over the winter.

For now, lets play around with some dimensions.

I had a piece of plywood that was 48" x 30" that I can use as guide of "the area we have to work with".

I added a piece of "tape measure" Duct tape (the long ways) to help show the dimensions that we have to work with.

I used the swing arm off of the Damien kart (to represent the rear tires) & put the tires at the right edge of the board.

For the front, I simply propped up a tire.

So, to start off with we have established a ~48" wheelbase & a ~36" track.
Attached Thumbnails
SAM_2581.jpg   SAM_2582.jpg  

SAM_2583.jpg   SAM_2585.jpg  

SAM_2590.jpg   SAM_2594.jpg  

SAM_2596.jpg   SAM_2597.jpg  

SAM_2598.jpg  
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:39 AM
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Wait... tape measure duct tape? Have I been living in a cave? Where did you get that?
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:51 AM
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Wait... tape measure duct tape? Have I been living in a cave? Where did you get that?
IIRC I got it at one of the Dollar stores.

I thought it would be kool to put along the edge of my work benches for quick reference.
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Old 10-23-2018, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Functional Artist View Post
Maybe, I'll do some CAD research over the winter.
I can tell you from my perspective designing everything in CAD before even touching real life work is SO helpful, for just about everything! I use Fusion because I do alot of 3D printing but find one that suits you.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:04 AM
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Functional Artist Functional Artist is offline
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IMO
To make a kart that looks like an Ariel Atom you have to start with the most important "recognizable" features the "ribbon rails", the nose area, the rear area & also the interior area. (especially the dash bar)

How we gonna do this? Hmmmm

I started by using a wooden broom handle to establish the floor of the kart.

Then we can figure where them "ribbon rails" need to go.

The top rail shouldn't be too high (compared to the operator) & they have to be on an angle with the distance between the rails at their wide-est right next to the operator.

The front of the lower rail should start roughly just above & ~ 4" - 6" ahead of where the front axle would (hypothetically) be & the rear should end near the top of the rear tires. (almost kinda like tail pipes)
Attached Thumbnails
SAM_2598.jpg   SAM_2602.jpg  

SAM_2603.jpg   SAM_2606.jpg  

SAM_2608.jpg   SAM_2610.jpg  

SAM_2611.jpg   Aerial Atom top view.png  

2014_ariel%20atom_atom__01.jpg   2012-ariel-atom-700-ddmworks-3.jpg  

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