Car engine starter project

[Leem1994]

I will be using a starter from a 2005 ford focus, on a 15 speed mountain bike. The problem is that I don't know what to power it with and how to control that power to keep from braking the chain. :confused: :worried2:

[ed1380]

you can do full on and full off power. doing something in between will require a controller and those are expensive

also read kibble's thread on how to modify it

[ed1380]

http://www.diygokarts.com/engine/car-starter-motor-conversion.html

[Leem1994]

Thanks!

[JerryAssburger]

Make sure and lean WAY FORWARD when you light the fuse! A friend got dumped on his back TWICE with his Old Woman's Trike Powered by a Black & Decker CMM1000 motor. Pretty funny! (to watch!)

[Leem1994]

Wow! Thanks I needed that!

[BradenM]

Torque from that motor will kill your bicycle chain. I would not consider bicycle chain as an option-I've managed to stretch the stuff over a period of 10 minutes with a small, OHC robin (24cc approx).
That starter motor has a lot more torque.

[Leem1994]

I guess a 42 chain should hold up right?

[BradenM]

Yes.

[bigfootrules31]

i was thinking about doing the same sort of thing, but how do you attach a sprocket to a starter motor?

[stephenm2682]

can you use this instead of engine on go kart, how fast would it go?

[backpack09]

To know how fast it would go you would have to know the RPM of the motor... Anyone have a clue at how fast a starter motor spins? My googling has only told me that it is somewhere above 2500 and cannot be 40000.

Dan

[stephenm2682]

what about using car alternator? i take it you mean rpm of the starter not car? so i need one off a big engine car? what is needed to get it to run? what motor is better for speed, what volt do i need.

[stephenm2682]

anyone help?

[ed1380]

none of us have done this so we dont know. its designed for 12v, but you could do 18 or 24. you're just sacrifising performance for life.

also an alternator turns movement into electricity, not good for moving stuff.

usually the speed of a motor is determined in RPM per volt. so at 12v it might do 1200rpm and at 18v 1800 rpm. we dont know the exact numbers

[kibble]

I've modified starters, but I have yet to use one in a motorized project. :(

One of the most difficult things is figuring out how to attach a sprocket to one, because of the fact that the gear at the end only rotates one way. It would require welding it or finding some other way of holding it securely.

[stephenm2682]

i thought the motor turns both ways for reverse? would you say a car motor would be any good?

[stephenm2682]

found one at...http://www.technobots.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_100W_to_450W_Motors_76.html
second one down also with chain sprocket!

[bigfootrules31]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSdY5qQesA8&feature=channel_page

magine that on a little minibike

[stephenm2682]

lol that looks like a fun way of getting to work. or be good drunk!

[ed1380]

lol nice and torquey

[JerryAssburger]

....see what I'm talking about when I said my friend got thrown on his back?!?! The starting torque of an electric is like winding a gas motor to it's torque peak and dumping the clutch. Instant BAM!

As far as motors go, try for AT LEAST 500watts. A 750 watt motor is about 1 hp. I sound like a broken record, but if you see one of those rechargeable lawnmowers (any brand is fine, but Black&Decker is the best.) ...and it's cheap- nab it! The B&D motor is very powerful and has a 5/8" shaft... VERY easy to work with. I found one last week at Goodwill for $30 and without a second thought, bought it.

[bigfootrules31]

i found a starter motor out of a corolla today, now i need some wheels would ones off a ride on or one of those heavy lifting troleys be good enough?

[stephenm2682]

....see what I'm talking about when I said my friend got thrown on his back?!?! The starting torque of an electric is like winding a gas motor to it's torque peak and dumping the clutch. Instant BAM!

As far as motors go, try for AT LEAST 500watts. A 750 watt motor is about 1 hp. I sound like a broken record, but if you see one of those rechargeable lawnmowers (any brand is fine, but Black&Decker is the best.) ...and it's cheap- nab it! The B&D motor is very powerful and has a 5/8" shaft... VERY easy to work with. I found one last week at Goodwill for $30 and without a second thought, bought it.

is this for a go kart design? if so what speed would a 750watt motor on average give?

[bigfootrules31]

how do you go about putting a sprocket onto a starter motor, theres the little cog thing(pardon my technical terms) that flys out when its turned on, hod is that removed and a sprocket put in its place

[stephenm2682]

these sell upto 1000w with chain sprocket.

http://www.technobots.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_500W_to_1000W_Motors_77.html

[JerryAssburger]

is this for a go kart design? if so what speed would a 750watt motor on average give?

Yes. The B&D motor is 24vdc- 36VDC and is rated at a peak of 5 hp. (At stall) At full load and 2000 rpm, it's putting out about 2000 watts, or just under 3hp @ 55amp draw.

Here's the link to it's specs.....
http://www.hongyangmotor.com/en/ProductView.asp?id=177&class=7#

It puts out (hope I converted the measurements right) 16ft lbs torque at stall (a GX 200 clone puts out 10) and at about 2000 rpm is still putting out about 8 ft. lbs.

The thing with electrics is, they only draw as much power as they need. So, when you're starting out under full power, it'll draw (and develop) quite a bit of power. Once you're up to top speed (about 3200 rpm) you're drawing about 30 amps @ 36V (or 1000 watts) and still at it's peak efficiency.

(Click the "View Details Page" button to see the power graphs and physical dimensions)

All I know is, I've seen and ridden first-hand a trike powered by one of these at both 12 and 24 volt (never tried 36v) and it's worth it's weight in gold, especially compared to what you'd pay for a motor of similar power. All you do is bolt a solid 5/8" sprocket (available on Ebay) -no clutch needed.
Warning: DON'T run a V-Belt set up on it.... the tension required to keep from slipping messes up the output bearing. Chain is fine.

if so what speed would a 750watt motor on average give?

...really hard to say, but my friend (200lbs/Old Woman's Trike) could get up to just under 20mph from 12v. On 24v it did 25-30 mph. Never tried 36v, and he generally kept it at 12v, because his batteries weren't the greatest. (He ran them in parallel to double the range). When he ran them in series (24v) the thing flew, but range dropped.

This contraption was meant to just buzz around the neighborhood at sedate speeds (It was too rickety for the speeds he could hit with it when he had the B/S 3hp on it... 35mph!)

[stephenm2682]

nice! so where do i find a decent motor and how do i make it run off more voltage, obviously more batteries but how do i get it to use it? if i need speed controller which do i need?

[ed1380]

speed controllers are EXPENSIVE

[Scumm]

Jerry, I've been planning my build for awhile now, and have been looking at dual 600-800W motors for it. When you say its pulling 55 amps, Is that continuous or peak? I'm having a hard time picking a controller for the job. I don't want to fry it, but I'd rather not spend more on the controller for a bunch of overkill I don't need.

[ed1380]

peak but you want to buy with some leeway(sp?)

[stephenm2682]

how expensive?

[ed1380]

$50-$150 and maybe even more

[ed1380]

this one looks like it will work, but it doesnt look heavy duty enough

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-Speed-Control-Controller-12V-60A-12-40V-720W_W0QQitemZ160319689470QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCar_E lectronics_Parts_Accessories?hash=item160319689470&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50



this one looks stronger. you'd have to get the motor and check the current draw and then buy the needed controller

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-Speed-Control-Controller-12V-100A-Reversible_W0QQitemZ160316036302QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item160316036302&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A16%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[stephenm2682]

what about
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110360417016
obviously depends on motor size?

[kibble]

what about
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110360417016
obviously depends on motor size?

That's seems more for an AC motor for like power tools and such. The second one Ed posted up seems like it'd be decent enough to handle some of those motors in the discussion.

[etard]

Ahh, this happens to be my area of expertise (i.e. don't ask me about women). What you need for a bicycle is a very low rpm per volt motor (called KV). Going 20 mph on a 26" tire bicycle the wheel is spinning at about 260 rpm. The speed reduction of your common electric motor is going to be your biggest obstacle in order to apply the motor to the bike. There are soooooo many options. The easiest, cheapest and most plug and play is going to be a rear hub electric motor where the hub of the wheel IS the motor. Eric Peltzer's electric bicycle(google it) is where you want to begin. Then go to endless-sphere.com to figure out the rest. If you want to see the best of the best go here:
http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/shumaker/default.htm

Sorry, I'm new here and haven't figured out the links and such.

[etard]

Oh yeah, speed controllers are relatively cheap, it's the batteries that are expensive. Watch this video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O9jHhCfo7s

I got this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Bike-Kit-36V-600W-Motor-Electric-Bicycle-Kit_W0QQitemZ130286179562QQihZ003QQcategoryZ47349Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[jr dragster Tyler]

Looks like a pretty torquey machine! I wonder what the duty cycle is of that starter?

[stephenm2682]

i was wanting to know about an electric go kart.?

[Scumm]

Stephen, if your electric go kart is for a full grown adult, I saw plans on another forum that called for two 750w electric scooter motors(a single 1000W for a child). I'm on my way out the door to work, but I'll try to post a link to that site later.

[stephenm2682]

i want something like this but he's only using one motor.

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/gadget-freak/2007/07/neuroti-kart-home-made-electric-go-kart.html

[etard]

Oh, well this started out as putting a starter motor on a bicycle, and now for go-kart, but still the theory and weight would be relatively similar. If you want something super light you can actually use RC motors like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwODx028_Jw
These guys are smoking that clutch because their gear reduction is not sufficient for slow speed, but it goes pretty fast!

You could get away with using 2 RC motors, 2 controllers and 4 batteries all from www.hobbycity.com

But if you want to go cheap, get one of these motors:

http://tncscooters.com/partsdb.php?class_type=Motor%20Parts

[JerryAssburger]

Now that's cool! I didn't think those little motors would work that well.

[stephenm2682]

any idea what rc motors they're using?

[kibble]

any idea what rc motors they're using?

It says on their comments that they are:

Turnigy 80-100A-180Kv

which would make them these: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5139 but on the page they say HXT.

But with a price tag of $150/each and not including the brushless controller :ack2:

[stephenm2682]

Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine...WoW


whats a brushless controller? that speed controller?

what speed controller would i need?

[ed1380]

yes its a type of controller for the motors they're using. starter motors are brushed motors or just common DC motors

[etard]

I don't think you want to use a starter motor. They are designed to be used at 12 volts and are only supposed to be used for a few seconds at a time. You might get away with a treadmill motor, or your best bet would be to hit up craigslist for a cheap electric scooter that the batteries have died on. That way you can salvage the motor, controller, throttle, power switch, sprocket, and if your lucky some batteries.

Brushless motors are AC induction motors that have 3 wires coming out of them and are much more efficient (read alot less heat that fries motors) than your common DC motor. Efficiency is important because things run cooler and more power gets to the pavement. Since you guys are running go-carts that are not used for transportation, you can actually get away with running 2 of the Bosch 36 volt toolpack batteries with 30 minute charger for $150 shipped. These will put out 10-15 minutes of high amperage fun followed by a 30 minute charge, get more and rotate out for constant fun. If you want to be cheap and run for 30 minutes get Lead Acid, but charge time will be more like 8 hours :sleeping: You will only save like $20 dollars anyway.

[stephenm2682]

surely the treadmill or scooter engine wouldn't have much power, anyone know the voltage?

[bigfootrules31]

i was looking on youtube and the guy said to take the starter apart and take the coggy thing off and just weld a sproket on there, i dont know what metal the shaft that the sproket will attach to is made of? will i also need to take the soleniod thing off?

[stephenm2682]

http://www.diygokarts.com/engine/car-starter-motor-conversion.html

[bigfootrules31]

i took her all apart and couldnt get the cog thing off the shaft. how ever i know of a old wrecked corolla that i might be able to get the flywheel off so i could just have the motor drive that

[stephenm2682]

bigfoot, are you planning on using it on a go-kart?
what voltage does a car starter have?

[stephenm2682]

how much power does a car starter have?

[zabac70]

From 800 W for small cars and upwards for bigger cars, depending of size of engine (all the car starters are 12 volts , for big trucks usualy 24 V).

[stephenm2682]

are'nt most of the electric go karts 12v they just use more batteries for extra volts??

[stephenm2682]

sorry forgot about the post above that says not to use them.

[ed1380]

yeah putting batteries is series adds the volts together.

[stephenm2682]

but how would it affect a 12v motor?

[zabac70]

Not very much if you put 24 V in starter (and provide cooling, which you have to do, cause starters aren't intended to run for more than 20-30 sec). If you go with 36 V (unless you using a big truck starter), things are getting complicated and you must(very much) limit the current to starter. Generally , almost every motor can be overvolted up to a point. Really , starters are "poor man choice" for cheap fun and adding a controller (to handle higher amps ) makes things a bit expensive, so in that case , you might as well go with some commercially available DC (or BLDC) motor and appropriate controller. However , it could be done (and many people did it), but do an extensive research on the matter or seek help from friends who knows the stuff or from car electrician near you. I didn't knew much either but after few months on the net I've learned a lot and the English isn't my language :). For myself , I've chosen (BLDC) motor for electric assisted steering from FIAT Punto and many newer car (from last decade) have those and they are usually BLDC motors. Of course , I need a controller and there are plenty "open source" schematics on the net and my would be built by near by TV & HIFI repair shop for very low amount of money (under 100 euros) and few beers :)

[stephenm2682]

does rob_fedstill use this site? i looked at his kart & it looks good he says use a honda or toyota starter but what age car & what motor? links are:-
http://robertklee10.tripod.com/shock_pictures.htm

http://www.geocities.com/hempev/plans.html

[zabac70]

does rob_fedstill use this site? i looked at his kart & it looks good he says use a honda or toyota starter but what age car & what motor? links are:-
http://robertklee10.tripod.com/shock_pictures.htm

http://www.geocities.com/hempev/plans.html

Japanese cars from 90's > upwards have permanent magnet starters (not sure if ALL japanese cars have them). Meaning, those starters are lighter and more compact and they take a bit more abuse (a bit more heat , before they die). Also , they are easyer to hack or rewound to a higher voltage (not all of them , cause some are so compact that they can't be opened without damage to the casing).

[stephenm2682]

do you have any idea where to find a rv solenoid like what he's talking about? does it need it

[zabac70]

In his instruction it is indicated that solenoid was cut off of the starter and thrown away (appendix D). The starter he is talking about is from Honda or Toyota - gear reduction starter (which I've posted before and you can find that fact at the end of instruction - parts list).

[stephenm2682]

on the electrical wiring diagram it shows a solenoid inbetween the battery & starter. titled important safety information

[zabac70]

Aahhh , THAT solenoid :) It is a regular car distributor solenoid , you can obtain it from the same car as the car starter. It is soda-can look like solenoid (a bit smaller) , connected to a distributor on the engine (solenoid are usually placed on some visible spot in the engine bay on the car body - they have to be grounded).This is applicable to the car from 90's era; new cars with computers and what not - I don't know - they have plastic or metal covers over the engine , so I never looked under those. Hope that helps.

[zabac70]

I forgot...the wiring sheme , that we talk about , IS FOR 12 Volts SYSTEM WITHOUT CONTROLLER (you can't control speed - it's eider on or off). If you want to overvolt it (like 24 V or 36 V) for better performance, you should consult the expert about it and how to put things together and you CAN NOT use only one distributor solenoid , cause it will blow.

[stephenm2682]

yeah that's the one. will see if i can find one from 90+ toyota or honda, any others??(what about any jap car) i have a mitsubishi.

[zabac70]

You should do a bit of research (salvage yards , local car mechanics , friends , neiboroghs...) to determine what are you looking for and to find out about possible replacement. If you lay eyes on one of those things (car starter or/and solenoid on any Toyota or Honda from 90's) , you can easily find its lookalike on any other (jap) car , which will work (there aren't many sorts of geared starters on Japanese car from that time). For Mitsubishi - I don't know , I've never had one.

[etard]

Treadmill motors are pretty good, Electric lawnmower, maybe a grinder or even a drill. Going electric is not gonna be cheap, so you might as well do it right and plan on spending some coin.