Desulfators?

[oscaryu1]

Do they work? Got mine today, hooked up to a SLA 12V 5A (scooter?) battery.

[kibble]

How about you try it and let US know if it worked? LOL

I'm kinda interested in knowing myself. I could maybe revive a bunch of dead lead acids I have.

[oscaryu1]

Same. I got this from a junk yard.

It's weird. I do all this stuff, but don't even have a multimeter :o

This SLA in particular charged, "finished", charged again, ect...

How long do ya think I should leave it hooked up?

[kibble]

I dunno, I was just reading about them, some say that you have to charge them and discharge a few cycles before you'll see the gains.

I was just looking for a schematic so I can build my own.

[oscaryu1]

Nahhh, buy FTW :D

Course you're with all the jiggly electronic words :(

Pics uploading :D

[kibble]

Take a look here:

http://www.alton-moore.net/graphics/desulfator.pdf

It's got some information you might find useful.

It would do you plenty of good to get yourself a multimeter.

It's the kind of information I was looking for, I can now build my own! :biggrin5:

[2or3wheels]

what are you two talking about? i have about 10 old car batteries in my back yard.

[oscaryu1]

Muhahahaha, it's a Kibble-oscar secret :)

[oscaryu1]

PICTURE ATTACK!

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x191/oscaryu1/100_1974.jpg
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[oscaryu1]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x191/oscaryu1/100_1987.jpg
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[sayre315]

dang!
your finger is NASTY!
hey
didnt you use that same screw driver in like the first video you made :)

[oscaryu1]

Why thank you :)

Ya I think so :) I can't part with it :) Although the screwdriver side is stuck now :(

[kibble]

Muhahahaha, it's a Kibble-oscar secret

Whoa! watch what you say! You're gonna get the pedobear card pulled out on us again! :P

[ed1380]

really? revive lead acids. that sounds usefull cause i got a few sealed 12v ones around here

[oscaryu1]

Ya :)

Wow ed ya post early! 4:00AM?! :eek:

My bus comes at 6:20 :(

Whoa! watch what you say! You're gonna get the pedobear card pulled out on us again! :P

'Least my friends don't think I drive "molester vans" :p

[ed1380]

nope it was 5am. it was an all nighter :cheers2:

no bus for me. i leave the driveway about 8:00 :p

[oscaryu1]

Bad boy :mad:

Your liver needs sleep :(

Anywho, I think it works. It barely reached 6V before. After about 24-28 hours, took it off, went to Walmart and bought a digital multimeter, hooked it up, it went from 8V to 11V in no time.

On the other hand (^ post was written 30 minutes ago), once I put a 12V speaker on it, it immidiately dropped to 5V. Tried it again, 8V. So I THINK it worked, but it needs to stay on there a bit longer.

[oscaryu1]

Well.... I guess I could say it works!

That along with a bitta topping offa fluids and such. Bought 5 batteries from eBay, 4 were discharged (got them to 70-90% of original capacity). And one measured 10V. Wouldn't power a 24V scooter motor at all...

I made sure it wouldn't power it, then tried a old speaker. It had a nice bounce, so it had hope :D

Added a bitta water, desulfated it, and charged it, did that again... then some EDTA water...

And then 13.07V, which dropped down to 12.5xV after a 5 second stand with a 55W light...

So yay it worked :)

[jr dragster Tyler]

Oscar, Kinda of interesting on this reviving sealed batterys and all but after doing all this work I think you need a real load test and not just some light bulb. My money says once you think you've fixed it put it on a load meter....See what happens.

[oscaryu1]

Well today I thought to drain it :(

And what's weird is... well here's the whole skoop:

1) Lasted about 1 minute before dimming rather... well like at a 4V level.

2) Let it sit there (hey I wanted to drain it all!)

3) Out of nowhere after a couple minutes there's a small *poop* and the light goes up to FULL BLAST :eek:

Literally, as in it looked better than it was at full charge. And as good as a 13V measured battery on the same light.

So... weird battery.

[ed1380]

your battery pooped?

[kibble]

It must have been constipated and that's why it had no power, once it "pooped" it was good again.

:roflol:

[jr dragster Tyler]

Well today I thought to drain it :(

And what's weird is... well here's the whole skoop:

1) Lasted about 1 minute before dimming rather... well like at a 4V level.

2) Let it sit there (hey I wanted to drain it all!)

3) Out of nowhere after a couple minutes there's a small *poop* and the light goes up to FULL BLAST :eek:

Literally, as in it looked better than it was at full charge. And as good as a 13V measured battery on the same light.

So... weird battery.

It's probably your half *** conections with tie wraps and hot glue.

[kibble]

You mean he's not using butt hairs and duct tape? No wonder it's not working...



Oscar, you should use a resistor of something maybe about 24 ohms and 20 watt (1/2 amp draw) and an ammeter so you can measure the amperage for a certain amount of time and see how it holds up, the resistor will probably get very warm so it would probably bee a good idea to keep it cool somehow.

[jr dragster Tyler]

Butt hairs lmao, Liquid cooled resistor FTW!

[ZnsaneRyder]

I dunno, I was just reading about them, some say that you have to charge them and discharge a few cycles before you'll see the gains.

I was just looking for a schematic so I can build my own.

True! I desulfated a few on my own, but they only kept a good charge after draining and recharging them a few times. I use a modified regular 12V battery charger with a 4700uf capacitor as a filter to filter the rectified DC peaks to give me a no-load voltage of ~18V. Also the automatic circuits (that detect full charge) is bypassed, so I have to keep an eye on it to not overcharge too bad, but it has revived a few batteries already. You can add a capacitor to any battery charger.

When a sulfated battery starts to take a charge again, the acid inside will bubble like a full battery because the voltage is over 15V, but let it keep bubbling and the voltage over time will actually DROP down to 12-13V and the battery will start to charge, then it's full once it gets to about 15V again.

I'm also designing a High Voltage, low current desulfator to leave on really bad batteries for days at a time, using a light bulb as a reliable resistor. It will give up to 120V DC (120Vx1.414=162.6V peak) I'm not sure if I'll use a capacitor or not, well see. I'm about to build it today! Here's a schematic:

To anyone here needing a multimeter, Harbor Freight tools has a sale on their multimeters, $3 for a regular digital, and $7 for the same one with a backlit display! Don't go to RadioShack for a meter, HF has the best deal on a good meter!

[ed1380]

sweet. ive wanted to build the one that was at the beginnng of the thread, but i couldn't find a special diode that it needed. i got a couple of lead acids that i want to fix. normal charging dont work

[ZnsaneRyder]

Update: It works! Awake the dead!

I got a Marine battery that's been flat dead for over a year to start charging!

It's cool that the light glows when current flows in the battery.

The voltage came up to over 25V at first, then dropped to 12 after 30 mins, then to 10.8V-11V after about 6 hours. After that, I put my bypassed charger on the battery @ 10A, and it sat at 15V for a while, then dropped slowly to 13.5V after 3 hours, then I put it on a 2A charge, and let it sit for more hours, and it's nearly full now. I'm letting it charge overnight.

The desulfator is LOW current, and won't charge the battery much by itself, but it wakes up the acid with the high voltage, so you can charge it again with higher current. Because there's over 120V DC, I decided NOT to use a capacitor, because I don't want to get shocked by the stored voltage in the capacitor, after it's unplugged.

BTW, I got my parts from broken TV's. All free. The bridge rectifiers are easy to spot. (bridge rectifiers are just 4 diodes in one package)

*I'm only using a 4watt bulb, I may try a 60W or 75W bulb and see how it does.

I still say you need an unregulated charger (in addition to the desulfator) of some sort once the battery starts to take a charge again, so you can leave it at a high voltage, but have good amps to charge with. A regulated charger will shut off too soon and not give a full charge. A 3Amp, 12.6V Radioshack transformer with a bridge rectifier and a capacitor would do the trick if you don't have an unregulated charger like mine.

[ZnsaneRyder]

In those pics, where does that Desulfator get its power from to feed the batteries?

Does it plug in to the 120V outlet, and the plug is not in the pics? All I saw was two wires.

[ZnsaneRyder]

Never mind, I got how the 12V version of that desulfator works, it has to have a 12V battery charger connected in parallel.

I'm about to check that Marine battery today, I'll keep you posted.

[oscaryu1]

True! I desulfated a few on my own, but they only kept a good charge after draining and recharging them a few times. I use a modified regular 12V battery charger with a 4700uf capacitor as a filter to filter the rectified DC peaks to give me a no-load voltage of ~18V. Also the automatic circuits (that detect full charge) is bypassed, so I have to keep an eye on it to not overcharge too bad, but it has revived a few batteries already. You can add a capacitor to any battery charger.

When a sulfated battery starts to take a charge again, the acid inside will bubble like a full battery because the voltage is over 15V, but let it keep bubbling and the voltage over time will actually DROP down to 12-13V and the battery will start to charge, then it's full once it gets to about 15V again.

I'm also designing a High Voltage, low current desulfator to leave on really bad batteries for days at a time, using a light bulb as a reliable resistor. It will give up to 120V DC (120Vx1.414=162.6V peak) I'm not sure if I'll use a capacitor or not, well see. I'm about to build it today! Here's a schematic:

To anyone here needing a multimeter, Harbor Freight tools has a sale on their multimeters, $3 for a regular digital, and $7 for the same one with a backlit display! Don't go to RadioShack for a meter, HF has the best deal on a good meter!

Zomg! How can I bypass my 12V 1.5A charger :(?

Only thing I've used before was a 18V transformer from... an idk what :(

TELL ME MOAR. :( I've never actually built anything from scratch... Me'd love to knoes. If it matters, I have two TV's I can scrap for parts.

You can add a capacitor to any battery charger.

Really? I have those "Battery Maintainers" 12V chargers...

Whoops lunch bell rang. BRB

[ed1380]

wait so what exactly do you do? hook up the thing in the diagram to the battery overnight and then to a unregulated charger and see if it takes a charge?

[kibble]

I don't think it's "overnight", I believe it takes a long time, sometimes days to desulfate a battery to a decent level. You have to have the desulfator in parallel between the charger or power supply and the battery.

I'd been meaning to build that desulfator I linked the schematic to early on in the thread, but I had a problem finding some of the parts myself. I would love to revive some dead batteries I have.

[oscaryu1]

Obtw ed - If those SLA's measure below 6V, don't even consider trying to charge them. I've had ones measure .4-2V, they had rusted/crapped out cells.

In other words - if you slap a SLA on the ground, and you shake it around and hear... things, then you got... crapped cells.

[jr dragster Tyler]

if you slap a SLA on the ground

I dont like to slap batteries


you got... crapped cells.




And some probelems.

[oscaryu1]

Well.. I recently... well... I'll make a thread if it's sucessful :)

[ZnsaneRyder]

wait so what exactly do you do? hook up the thing in the diagram to the battery overnight and then to a unregulated charger and see if it takes a charge?

Exactly.

It will start taking a really slow charge when you use the 120V DC desulfator cord, if you measure the battery voltage, it will go up, then down. That's when you connect the unregulated charger.

[ZnsaneRyder]

The Marine battery is still taking a charge, but the cells are in bad shape, so a full charge only gave it 12.4V instead of the 12.6V or so, but still far better than nothing. I've left my 120V Desulfator on it for several days since, and I'm about to drain, and recharge the battery again to see if I can get it a bit better.

I'm glad, that's still another battery I can use, that was just useless before, now it's worth something to me, and great for projects.

[oscaryu1]

Hey ZnsaneRyder, do you have any schematics on making that "18V" charger? Or just pretty much raising the voltage of a cheap $19.99 WalMart 6/12V 1.5A Charger?

Thanks!

[ZnsaneRyder]

I haven't been inside one of those WalMart chargers, so I'm not sure about those.

An easy for-sure way, Go to RadioShack and get a $15 dollar, 25.2V transformer, 6A bridge rectifier, and capacitor. The transformer outputs more than the specs @ 26V, and about half of that (13V) if you use the center tap to get half voltage. Even though it's a 26V transformer, we are only interested in the 13V since we are charging 12V car batteries. The peak of the AC sinewave converted to DC is (13vRMS x 1.414 = 18.38V DC)

Connect the yellow AC wires to the AC terminals on the Bridge Rectifier. Put the Battery Positive to the + on the bridge rectifier, and the Battery negative to the black center tap wire on the transformer to get your 13V RMS, 18.3V unregulated peak output. Connect the 2200uf capacitor in parallel to the battery. The capacitor is very important, to filter the electric, and to allow it to peak over 18V.

BTW, the transformer in my battery charger is connected this same exact way as the RadioShack transformer. Most old type 12V transformer battery chargers use this topology from a 26V transformer, but without the capacitor.

[ed1380]

dude are you some EE or what? thats like *woosh* over my head

[oscaryu1]

I haven't been inside one of those WalMart chargers, so I'm not sure about those.

An easy for-sure way, Go to RadioShack and get a $15 dollar, 25.2V transformer, 6A bridge rectifier, and capacitor. The transformer outputs more than the specs @ 26V, and about half of that (13V) if you use the center tap to get half voltage. Even though it's a 26V transformer, we are only interested in the 13V since we are charging 12V car batteries. The peak of the AC sinewave converted to DC is (13vRMS x 1.414 = 18.38V DC)

Connect the yellow AC wires to the AC terminals on the Bridge Rectifier. Put the Battery Positive to the + on the bridge rectifier, and the Battery negative to the black center tap wire on the transformer to get your 13V RMS, 18.3V unregulated peak output. Connect the 2200uf capacitor in parallel to the battery. The capacitor is very important, to filter the electric, and to allow it to peak over 18V.

BTW, the transformer in my battery charger is connected this same exact way as the RadioShack transformer. Most old type 12V transformer battery chargers use this topology from a 26V transformer, but without the capacitor.

I lost you at the bridge... recerter thingie.

[jr dragster Tyler]

dude are you some EE or what?

My dad is.

[ed1380]

i was gonna minor in ME

[ZnsaneRyder]

dude are you some EE or what? thats like *woosh* over my head

One day I will be. I consider myself a self-proclaimed engineer, as I have learned many times over what any school could ever teach me. However, I'm still looking for a career I can use this knowledge for.

School is a joke, you can learn much more when you think for yourself.

It's about an open mind, drive to learn and achieve, and looking around on the internet, and reading, and most of all, experience. ANY of you can learn this, it just takes a lot of work, but it's well worth it.

I regularly post on diyaudio.com as well, and have made several amplifiers, and power supplies. I also have a 2 year Associate's Degree in computers, but however, I find Electronics WAY more satisfying in comparison.

[ed1380]

id love to make electronics stuff like that. but money is always been an issue. and also me trying to do too many things at once

[jr dragster Tyler]

School is a joke, you can learn much more when you think for yourself.
Nice message for all the youngsters on here. I think I will stay in school for now.

[kibble]

One day I will be. I consider myself a self-proclaimed engineer, as I have learned many times over what any school could ever teach me. However, I'm still looking for a career I can use this knowledge for.

School is a joke, you can learn much more when you think for yourself.

It's about an open mind, drive to learn and achieve, and looking around on the internet, and reading, and most of all, experience. ANY of you can learn this, it just takes a lot of work, but it's well worth it.

I regularly post on diyaudio.com as well, and have made several amplifiers, and power supplies. I also have a 2 year Associate's Degree in computers, but however, I find Electronics WAY more satisfying in comparison.

:iagree: with almost everything you say, including the school is a joke stuff, except, unless you have any proof that you went to school (certs and stuff) no one will hire you. :-(

[ZnsaneRyder]

Nice message for all the youngsters on here. I think I will stay in school for now.

It's a great message. It's positive too. I encourage people to use their full mind.

Public schools tend to mislead youngsters into believing that you learn everything from school, and discourage thinking for yourself. School teaches obedience, not really true knowledge.

College was a much greater experience for me, but it won't promise you a better job, it just gives you a better chance of more knowledge and the Degree to help improve your odds, but it's no guarantee.

Stay in school, of course, but don't get your hopes up when they don't teach you what you were hoping to really learn. For example, you know about Jr Dragsters by experience, and learning and thinking for yourself. School couldn't even scratch the surface.

Use school as a basis for your knowledge to get started, to help you to learn better on your own. True knowledge is obtained by learning and thinking for yourself.

[oscaryu1]

School, pah, useless :rolleyes:

BRB Homework :)

On a completely nother subject... WOOOOOOT CHOPPER WORKS.

[jr dragster Tyler]

Yeah I suppose thats true. I learn by hands on and NOT reading threw text books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeZxRYXZ154

[kibble]

threw text books.

Why do you throw textbooks? :roflol:

[jr dragster Tyler]

Cause they make me angry And Kibble was a good target. Jk you know what I ment.

[kibble]

Oh, I thought that's what you meant by "hands on". :bannana:

:roflol:

[jr dragster Tyler]

Ohh lmao!

[oscaryu1]

The inside of a year old cracked SLA is cool. Gooey n' brown.

[kibble]

I hope you didn't touch the stuff. :ack2:

[ZnsaneRyder]

The inside of a year old cracked SLA is cool. Gooey n' brown.

Wow.

I wonder what cracks them?

[oscaryu1]

Thowing them on concrete... or the old hammer and chisel method.

[ZnsaneRyder]

I just got a few more free batteries now. People are very willing to give away their "bad" batteries that don't work anymore. :cheers2:

1st battery, an old car battery from a wreck, that sat until it drained and sulfated, and would no longer hold a charge.

The second battery is a regular wet cell lead acid 180CA Riding-Lawnmower battery

The third battery is an old AGM motorcycle battery.

I rewired my 120V DC desulfator cord, by running it in series with two powerful 150W floodlights (giving me ~75W total, and running them half bright) and it feeds the batteries over 1/2 an amp. With the higher power, it charges batteries now by itself, but slowly.

The new 120V charge cord forced them all to take a charge. The car battery charged up fine on the battery charger after a few hours of treatment with the desulfator cord. The case leaks slightly around the top of the car battery from past physical damage, but it starts my car just fine after a couple good charge cycles! I couldn't save the AGM as it only got to 11.75V and got VERY hot during charging, especially if I used the regular 2/10A battery charger. The 180CA lawnmower battery took a charge great, and was full after several hours on the 120V desulfator. That lawnmower battery seems 100% fine like there was nothing ever wrong with it! SCORE! :thumbsup:

I love how on any "dead" battery with the 120V cord, the voltage starts high on the battery, then drops to 10-11V within a few seconds, and starts it charging from the bottom!

[PitBoss]

I need to do more research into it, but you can not charge AGM batteries on a normal charger.
I have one of the digital Shumaker chargers that will desulfate a battery. It does have its limits though.

[oscaryu1]

^ Really? That's what I've been doing for the past year. Works fine, I have the 1.5 and 2/4/6amp Sch...thingie WalMart charger. Works fine. The 1.5 is more of a AGM charger, and the 2/4/6 more of the automotive charger.

I couldn't save the AGM as it only got to 11.75V and got VERY hot during charging, especially if I used the regular 2/10A battery charger.

I'm working on one also from an OLD junked UPS (As in... "Holy crap that looks like it came from the 80's). Really. I plugged it and turned up my adjustable 0-32V power supply, and it took a charge - slowly, and increased.

However, it got sizzling hot - like yours. Injected some fridge water (maybe lost some acid?), and then did a continuous charge - overcharge - desulfate cycle for a couple times. Rose from a sad "full and hot" charge of 10.38V to a 11.7V ish.

Tomorrow we'll see again - this time she barely measures 12V - after a nice overcharge.

BTW - What is this "120V" cord you're talking about? 120V DC or AC? :eek:

[ZnsaneRyder]

It's 120V DC. There's a schematic in this thread. That's why it has the bridge rectifier, to turn the AC to DC so you have a proper positive and a negative, and using the lightbulb as a series resistor on the AC side, to limit the amperage to make it charge slowly, and safely dissipate the waste heat from the voltage drop.

Just like your 32V supply, it basically takes a higher than normal voltage to make a flat battery take a charge again. That's nice you can adjust your 32V power supply, so you don't cook the battery too quickly.

It's all about making the battery conduct electricity again, and that's the beauty of high voltages. I like how the 120V works even with dirty terminals, lol. I've had the best success rate with the regular liquid lead-acid batteries.

Warning, this 120V DC desulfator cord may shock you, especially without a load connected, so for safety, I recommend unplugging the cord each time before connecting, or removing it from the battery terminals. I've been shocked a couple times already, so I know from experience, lol. As long as it's not plugged in when you touch the terminals, it's just fine, and no shocks.

[oscaryu1]

Got my bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid today, and my first burn!

It turned my black pants red, hardened it, seeped through it onto my knee, turned my knee red, and upon washing it, turned corrosion-like blue.

O.o

Anywho, this stuff is AWESOME! That little white battery that always got hot (from the old UPS) had 12.9V right off the charger after a few drops from that stuff, and then settled at 12.7-12.6V. A 12.4V 5aH battery went to 12.6-12.7V after a few seconds of charging...

...and a 12.22V (A very healthy 12.22V, worked great, charged great... but it was OLD, it was just... "dying" from use. It came with my chopper - the one I found).

I gave each cell (6) a little dropperfull of that acid, and she bumped to 13.02V (?!?!)! Looks like she was a bit low, I expect that to lower down to 12.8-12.9 overnight though, like I said, it's a big difference, but it's a 4-6 year old battery that was used continually (but recharged, so barely and trouble with sulfation). That acid does the trick!

However, it failed on sulfated batteries. Didn't make a difference. It has to be de-sulfated batteries in need of new acid.

[kibble]

Where'd you get the bottle of acid?

[oscaryu1]

eBay.

And today I learned NEVER to leave a dropper that fell into that acid to hope nothing happens - it turns it yellow... and black..

So I wasted virtually $30... Stupid 87 cent WalMart acid droppers... grrr.... :mad2:

On the other hand, I learned why it's Acid to Water, and not Water to Acid.

It was a weird lesson. Lungs full of baking soda and sulfuric acid and a melted plastic bucket. **** I didn't know that sulfuric acid could get that hot offa tap water.

[kibble]

On the other hand, I learned why it's Acid to Water, and not Water to Acid.

There's a saying I learned in one of my chemistry classes at college:

Do as you ought-er,
add acid to water!

It's kinda cheesy but easy to remember.

[ZnsaneRyder]

Got my bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid today, and my first burn!

It turned my black pants red, hardened it, seeped through it onto my knee, turned my knee red, and upon washing it, turned corrosion-like blue.

O.o

Anywho, this stuff is AWESOME! That little white battery that always got hot (from the old UPS) had 12.9V right off the charger after a few drops from that stuff, and then settled at 12.7-12.6V. A 12.4V 5aH battery went to 12.6-12.7V after a few seconds of charging...

...and a 12.22V (A very healthy 12.22V, worked great, charged great... but it was OLD, it was just... "dying" from use. It came with my chopper - the one I found).

I gave each cell (6) a little dropperfull of that acid, and she bumped to 13.02V (?!?!)! Looks like she was a bit low, I expect that to lower down to 12.8-12.9 overnight though, like I said, it's a big difference, but it's a 4-6 year old battery that was used continually (but recharged, so barely and trouble with sulfation). That acid does the trick!

However, it failed on sulfated batteries. Didn't make a difference. It has to be de-sulfated batteries in need of new acid.

EXCELLENT RESEARCH!! So the batteries that take a charge, but won't get proper voltage need more concentrated acid! I'm impressed to say the least.

So we need to desulfate them first to get them in working condition, then add acid. Amazing.

Where do you get concentrated Sulfuric acid?

[kibble]

Where do you get concentrated Sulfuric acid?
The first word in post #66

[ZnsaneRyder]

The first word in post #66

:roflol:

I can't believe I missed that. LOL

[PitBoss]

Not to keep pimping O'Reilly's, but we sell battery acid. I don't know if it is concentrated or not.

[oscaryu1]

Should say, but orly? O'Reilly? :D

Well it lowered a bit more than I thought (13.02 -> 12.6-12.7), but still an improvement none the less.

And I just destroyed a couple batteries by accidentally hooking them up at 36V and charging with a 48V charger!

Heh...heh :o

[ZnsaneRyder]

I just got another dead (slightly swollen) car battery to play with, but I tried something a bit different, and it's working so far. I took 36V (3 car batteries in series, way over 100A of current) and used them momentarily on the dead 12V battery. At first there was hardly a spark at all, but once it was on there for about a minute, the battery bubbled fiercely, and the battery would make a big spark if I reattached the terminal. After that, I put it on my battery charger, and it's taking a charge. That was using 36V at over 100A to get it going, and it's now taking a steady 10A charge. I'll report back on how this battery turns out.

[kibble]

I really want to get into all this desulfatin' action with you guys. I have several SLA's that I want to bring back from the dead. I just don't have the money or time at the moment. :(